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Author Topic: Camera Systems  (Read 4120 times)

Offline anglefire

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Camera Systems
« on: August 28, 2010, 08:41:57 PM »
I'm not really sure where this is going at the moment so bare with me. :tup:

Ever since the Nikon came out with the D3, Jonathan has been proudly boasting the noise performance of it and now the D3s. Forgetting the many years when going to ISO800 was a gamble. And at a time when even the Canon 350D would be good for ISO1600.

And it is still only the top line Nikons that can be pushed to over ISO1600 with gay abandon.

And forgetting that the Canon 5D was the noise king for nearly 3 years. Actually that was probably Canon's downfall.

And now we have the sales figures showing Nikon have taken huge chunks off of them. Despite many years since Nikon were last in that position which is also conveniently forgotten.

Nikon have brought out some stunning lenses, 14-24 and 24-70, spring to mind and suddenly Canon are producing carp.

The last Olympics saw Nikon with a heavy presence. Mostly by providing the Pro's with the gear. All of a sudden Canon are losing the Pro lead. Despite the fact that at many motorsport events, White lenses are everywhere.

And now we have Sony who have brought out 2 decent bodies, and suddenly they are about to take over Canon into 2nd spot. Despite the fact, that as Jonathan pointed out, have no backup for Pro-users. And hardly any decent lenses.

Some of the above may or may not be factually correct, but IMHO is generally the perception.

This is now some of my thoughts. Take them as you will.

Nikon, Canon, Oly, Pentax, Sony et al all produce kit that is good. None of them produce kit that suits everybody. None of them produce kit that is all perfect.

For the general amateur, any system will do the job, but I suspect that some people don't choose Canon/Nikon because it isn't Canon/Nikon.

I also think though that the R&D and customer support of Canon/Nikon is far and above anything else and that is why they are the choice of 99% of the pro market.

I am perfectly happy with my choice in Canon. I can use my 5D and MkIII up to ISO3200 with some care, and my MkIII to 6400 with some additional post processing and noise reduction. I can even use my 350D to ISO 1600, which is about 6years old I think.

But ultimately, the gear is only a tool.

Not sure where this has gone, but I don;t really care! :2funny:


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Offline SimonW

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2010, 09:54:24 PM »
Oh dear - I started "writing" a reply in my head, and then decided I didn't know where it was going either. Anyway:

 I fully agree with your "Nikon, Canon, Oly, Pentax, Sony et al all produce kit that is good. For the general amateur, any system will do the job". So if you belong to the modern throw-away generation your choice should be based on how it fits your hand, how intuitive you find the controls and so on.

I suspect many folk on this forum take a longer term view and don't want to throw away all their kit in a few years time when one component needs replacing or upgrading. Such folk need to choose a manufacturer who will still be around and producing kit compatible with what they're buying now, when that time comes.

Why worry about a larger market share? If a company only made cameras a larger market share might lead to more R&D, longer company life etc. But even huge companies can suddenly crash and disappear, and most of these are relatively small parts of very large organisations, which might support them or give them the chop on a whim.

Um... do I press Post or Delete...

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Offline Graham

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2010, 06:33:42 AM »
   Can't really argue with any of that.
   But to paraphrase Mark,  I suspect that some people don't choose Canon/Nikon because it is Canon/Nikon.
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Offline bones615

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2010, 08:56:36 AM »
Got to agree with Mark, the kit is only a tool and they are all so similar its up to us to get the best out of whatever system.
The choice thing is different, from my experience when you are new to photography the choices are huge and historically there have been 2 big familiar names that have biggest market share therefore largest number of reveiws which in turn pushes the newbie toward one or other, then you buy extra kit specific to the system and you are locked in because a body upgrade is a large expense & you are not going to replace all your kit at once.

Simon

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Offline Bigbill

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2010, 07:13:24 PM »
Hewwo from top of League 1 Sheffy !!!!! :)

Now then,,,,it does seem to me that the High ISO issue is a biggy to those who know what they are doing with high end DSLRs,,,and so it should be,,,it makes low light work(Gigs) a piece of cake,
However,i would say the deciding factor to keen amateurs is ease of use and lay out of controls,,,,
all of the big manufacturers make stuff which is more than good value,,,,in that sense snappers from right across the Spectrum(S.I.G.)have never had it so good !
I,m just glad the pixel race is over.

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Offline alan1572

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2010, 07:27:43 PM »
when i was looking at my first DSLR i wouldn't for a second have chose anything other than nikon/canon, i suppose that's the whole point, it's a merry circle, the more people get those two the more people will get those two, any hoo, for what i use mine for i'm very happy with it and i suppose ** stands up and looks around**hello, my name is alan andi'm a brand snob.....there i've said it and TBH it doesn't bother me
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Offline chris@seary.com

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2010, 09:48:38 PM »
Camera systems - do they really exist nowadays? I know I'm an old fart, I really do. I must sound like someone from the 1950s sometimes.....

The Olympus system - not the new digital stuff, but the old OM1, OM2 etc - that was a proper camera system. Everything fitted everything else. Olympus even made sure that all the lenses had one of 3 filter threads.

Do we get this nowadays? It seems that many accessories, such as flashguns, have very little backward or forward compatibility.

Nikon have both the best and worst compatibility for lenses. Yeah, you can fit any Nikon lens to any Nikon camera from the last 50 years or so. Some of the most recent cameras (D40/60/3000/5000) can use the earliest Nikkors. However, the functionality is a game of roulette. The matrix for which lens gives which functionality for a camera is two pages of any Nikon manual.

As regards high ISO, you have to give credit for Nikon daring to use the latest sensor technology with a low pixel count. The Canon 50D came out, which was probably the most boring camera release ever. Five pages of every camera magazine devoted to .... the 40D with an extra 5 megapixels. The D300 scored highly due to the poor high ISO eprformance of the 50D, and I think this was the dealbreaker for Nikon. Also, they hit the beginner market with the cheapest DSLR on the market (D40), which brought a lot of people on board.

I have to say, Canon bring out a lot of cameras, very regularly to stay competitive, but I don't think they bring the innovation that they used to.

End of the day, it's just a camera body, and it's the lenses that are really important. As a Nikon user, I have to hold back a twinge of envy and admit that Camon have the best lens range. But perhaps Nikon are catching up....

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 11:02:22 PM »
I suppose, in all honesty, i've always been a Canon man, right from owning an A1.

I'm not sure the brand names are holding like they used to. Sony are not to be sneezed at any more - and their prices are more than competitive enough to give the big two a run for their money on the intro market.

No, what worries me is what is going on at Canon. I know the lead was theirs to give away - but to didn't mean they had to send it via recorded delivery.
I love my 5D2 more than i loved my 30D & 40D, and as has been pointed out, i'm an ISO bug so the 5D2 answered my concerns on that front, but that's the type shooting i do (or did).

Thankfully, i'm pretty much where i want to be body wise - except i could do with a second one - and i have most of the lenses i need / use.

I"m sure this whole debate could be settled with a pack of Top Trump Cards just as easily...

My interests lie with lighting now - who's gonna start a thread on lighting?

Offline nickt

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 11:07:30 PM »
I went for Nikon because at the time according to reviews the d40 was the best camera to get for a beginner. I did alot of research and realized that whatever make you buy, you're 'stuck' with it because of the lenses. If the Canon 350 or 450 had been reviewed as the best camera for a beginner, I would have bought that. Once I'd got more into my photography and noticed loads of cameras with grey coloured lenes, I thought have I made a mistake. I then bought a d300 and thought no! :legit:

Nick

Offline spinner

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 11:46:37 PM »
I started out with Pentax, as that's what my older brother had and he had a job and lenses I just had the camera.  :D Then when I was employed a co worker got me interested in Minolta and I owned several over my adult life. I was all ready to buy into the KM digitals when they went and sold to Sony. There were no new KM's to be had and Sony hadn't started production so when I went digital I picked up a Nikon. To be honest, none of my family or friends had Canon's and to me, they were a photocopier company.  :)

I still like my D50, but I picked up a used A350 because I still had a bag full of Minolta lenses. Now I switch back and forth dependent on my mood. I really should take the time to do a comparison of the two systems and decide which is better.
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Offline anglefire

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2010, 12:20:01 AM »
Interestingly, when the 350D came out, it was probably the best all round beginner camera - I forget what the alternative equivalents were at the time - D70 was the one I looked at at the same time and thought it too big (Says he now having a MkIII!)

But yes, Nikon really caught the timing right with the D40.

As for lenses, perhaps the fact that Nikon have introduced some stunning lenses, that Canon are trying to avoid falling behind that they have introduced 4 lenses this year with notice on two more for next.

It used to be the case that, unless you went MF, the only way to get tilt and shift was to go Canon. Now Nikon have good coverage - though they don't go as wide as Canon at the moment.

I was out with my family and some friends in Manchester - one of my Friends has a 1DMkIII - and its a stunning camera - Everything about it is better than my MkIII - From the LCD on the back, which you can use to see if the picture is in focus or not, to the AF and ISO. I would really like one. But I don't have the £2-2.5K to upgrade. Or at least SWMBO won't let me spend it. She wants a new bedroom or some such non-essential :)
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Offline anglefire

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2010, 12:26:47 AM »
I've just looked at WEX for the prices of the new 300 and 400mm lenses - They are having a laugh and I hope they are no where near those prices when actually released. £7.5K for the 300 and £11.5k for the 400! Thats about double the outgoing lens prices.
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Offline Trickee

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2010, 07:42:31 AM »
In the past i have used Kodak,Fuji,Mamiya,Canon, Nikon film and finally settled with Nikon digital. Is it a system?. Well yes i suppose it is if you include all the software that i have bought as well. would i change to another brand?, probably not once you have got use to the camera's design and set up there is really no reason to change but only upgrade to another model in the range. I have pushed my D80 to its limits and have researched all the Nikon models that were developed after the D80. I have downloaded NEF files scrutinised them and read endless reviews and concluded that to up the standards of definition i will be going full frame, which in itself is a system change!. As well as buying an FX camera i also need to buy some decent FX lenses which do not come cheap. why change?. Well there,s many a time when i want to take a shot in less than favourable light conditions and i don't bother in the knowledge that my current camera will take the shot with too much noise in the image and won't capture the definition that the picture deserves. I need some freedom to up the ISO setting without losing picture quality and it seems the new breed of cameras are achieving this.
So my target camera is the D700 which will do everything i need and more.

Offline ABERS

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2010, 09:21:28 AM »
Why who has gone with what and the reasons for so doing are all perfectly understandable following the result of some form of research. I have the feeling that a lot of talk about what gear one has, is to some extent a deepseated subliminal desire to justify to oneself that you have made the right decision in purchasing it.

It's always reassuring to read positive reviews after buying something, and those little leaflets that come with goods congratulating you that you are obviously a discerning person in making the choice that you have are always a boost to the ego and puts one's mind to rest. I think if you need such reassurance you will find youself reading the leaflets/brochures about what gear you have and eagerly seaching for those positive write-ups, it's called cognitive dissonance.

If none of this applies to you, then you're a happy bunny. :tup:

What I would like to know is, can anyone spot, from just looking at a picture, what camera it was taken on?

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Re: Camera Systems
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2010, 10:27:47 AM »
Good points Alan.

By and large, i can not often tell what camera a picture was taken with - though some of JR's Hassalblad pictures produce a certain type of image that i can separate from his Nikon's.
Also, i can more easily spot pictures taken with a higher MP count (18+) - it's the detail they resolve. But i think that comes more from working with a camera with a high MP rating.
Differentiating crop from FF has a higher chance of success.
I can much easier separate film from digital.

But ultimately we are still back to your original question - "can i tell what brand of camera was used?" mostly not!

Identifying the photographer is much easier... I know an "Abers" shot when i see one  :tup:

 

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