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Author Topic: tiffs  (Read 5521 times)

Offline oRGie

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2009, 03:49:37 PM »
Glad your sorted Nick, Nice work Forseti  :beer:

Its no wonder that cracked versions of cs4 are so readily available, adobe's policy on this stuff stinks imho, they could at least offer a camera raw standalone instal at a fair price as a ps plugin so we only have to upgrade camera raw due to new cameras rather than the whole shebang. If someone wants the latest PS fair enough, but I bet a lot of users just upgrade for the latest camera raw support.

4 years ago i got cs2 upgraded from ps7 for 400d, 2 years ago I had to get cs3 for the 40D and now I need cs4 for the 7D  errmm,, I dont think so ... 

At least there is the legal dng route as an alternative I guess..

Offline anglefire

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2009, 05:26:59 PM »
Actually, I am one of the few that went from CS3 to CS4 as an upgrade. (My CS3 was an upgrade from CS2 - but I never installed CS2 as it was a deal at the time. Have all the disks though, so  quite legal  :tup:)

CS4 is actually a lot better than CS3 - but like everything, it depends what you do! Content aware scaling is very handy at times, as is the ability to rotate the canvas when using the Watcom pen. I also like the smart filters etc, though don't use them as much as I should probably!
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Offline nickt

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2009, 05:43:55 PM »
Yes, it does seem a bit of a liberty that just because you've bought a new camera and the raw files are different all of a sudden your camera raw is no longer compatible with your camera or version of photoshop. I think it would be better to be able to upgrade just the camera raw software.

Nick

Offline Jonathan

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2009, 05:52:54 PM »
Yes, it does seem a bit of a liberty that just because you've bought a new camera and the raw files are different all of a sudden your camera raw is no longer compatible with your camera or version of photoshop. I think it would be better to be able to upgrade just the camera raw software.

Nick

I think it would be better if the camera manufacturers didn't change the file format every time they released a new camera.  I suspect Adobe would agree.

There's absolutely no reason for it - if you discount incompetence and greed.

I does seem illogical to be angry with Adobe for not spending their resources (which of course we all pay for) maintaining older versions of software when you chose to buy a new camera and the manufacturer chose to change the file format.

There is of course always the option of using the DNG converter to convert your files to a version that you s/w understands.  Adobe develop and provide this for free.
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Offline Hinfrance

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 06:25:58 PM »
Yes, it does seem a bit of a liberty that just because you've bought a new camera and the raw files are different all of a sudden your camera raw is no longer compatible with your camera or version of photoshop. I think it would be better to be able to upgrade just the camera raw software.

Nick

I think it would be better if the camera manufacturers didn't change the file format every time they released a new camera.  I suspect Adobe would agree.

There's absolutely no reason for it - if you discount incompetence and greed.

I does seem illogical to be angry with Adobe for not spending their resources (which of course we all pay for) maintaining older versions of software when you chose to buy a new camera and the manufacturer chose to change the file format.

There is of course always the option of using the DNG converter to convert your files to a version that you s/w understands.  Adobe develop and provide this for free.

On the contrary Adobe would be horrified if they couldn't keep on gouging the punters on every new product cycle to 'allow' purchasers of the latest kit to use their products.

Unlike many software companies (and I accept it is their choice) they neither support their legacy software nor sell it at a discount to provide a possible entry route to later upgrades and give people who, apart from owning a modern camera, don't actually want or need all the bells and whistles of the latest release.

FWIW I think Adobe are one of the most immoral companies out there.

And LR is a bloatware stinker  ;)
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Offline oRGie

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2009, 08:50:14 PM »
I does seem illogical to be angry with Adobe for not spending their resources (which of course we all pay for) maintaining older versions of software when you chose to buy a new camera and the manufacturer chose to change the file format.

Personelly I have no problem with them working on new versions, I like PS so I dont begrudge them a living, but they could seperate camera raw quite easily no doubt and let the user choose if they want the latest PS or just want the latest camera raw, we would still be paying for their develpoment costs, though only for the bit we want or need :)

I think they are losing potential customers now, there must be a lot of people following the dslr's upgrades and so needing to upgrade PS, but after once or twice I bet a lot of customers either just use dng to convert (and hats off to adobe for providing that and trying to lead the industry towards a standard of some kind) or look at software like gimp or as a lot will, a cracked version ;)

And LR is a bloatware stinker  ;)

So there  :D


Offline Forseti

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 09:13:58 PM »
Yes, it does seem a bit of a liberty that just because you've bought a new camera and the raw files are different all of a sudden your camera raw is no longer compatible with your camera or version of photoshop. I think it would be better to be able to upgrade just the camera raw software.

Nick

I think it would be better if the camera manufacturers didn't change the file format every time they released a new camera.  I suspect Adobe would agree.There's absolutely no reason for it - if you discount incompetence and greed.

I does seem illogical to be angry with Adobe for not spending their resources (which of course we all pay for) maintaining older versions of software when you chose to buy a new camera and the manufacturer chose to change the file format.There is of course always the option of using the DNG converter to convert your files to a version that you s/w understands.  Adobe develop and provide this for free.

There are some very interesting points raised in this discussion. Members might be interested in reading Jeff Schewe’s take on this from the following 2 extracts taken from the LR forum. These were in reply to concerns raised regarding the delay in Adobe providing support for the new Canon 7D.

    1.Well, I am the co author of Real World Camera Raw and work with the engineers on certain aspects of Camera Raw features such as capture and output sharpening (as well as a few "other" things). I've also been directly involved with the development of Lightroom since the very beginning–one of the first dev meetings on Lightroom (AKA Shadowland) was held in my studio.
 
So, yeah I am pretty much an expert-professionally speaking...
 
I've been trying since early 2003 to get the camera makers to either 1) fully document their file formats or 2) adopt a standardized raw file format at least as an option on cameras...Certain camera makers have seen the light such as Pentax and Leica-both of whom offer DNG as an option and whose buyers get out of the box compatibility with Camera Raw and Lightroom. But it seems Nikon and Canon users must continue to struggle with time delays because of those camera companies' policies...
 
Because make no mistake about it, the camera companies COULD make this issue disappear...but as long as new camera buyers are predisposed to blame Adobe, I doubt we'll see much change.


    2. Too bad more shooters don't grok the truth. If they did, we might just be able to turn the tide on the Nikons & Canons and make them behave in a manner better suited to the digital photography industry....because seriously, who can possibly think that way things are now is a "good thing"?
 
Every step of the way whether you count Adobe's effort on .XMP metadata (a free standard), .DNG (a free standard) .PDF (and open standard advocated by Adobe) and TIFF–a standard inherited from Aldus and maintained by Adobe as a (free) standard for TIFF-6 and TIFF-EP (which is the basis for DNG and generally adopted by CR2 and NEF files) you really need to understand just how far Adobe has gone to improve and benefit the digital photographic industry...
 
To then have people with no clue about the political and technical challenges leak&Moan™ about the fact that it takes a bit of time for Adobe to decode and re-engineer Camera Raw to support newly released cameras (which COULD be automatically supported if the cameras supported DNG) get some people (for example ME...) just a bit ticked off that some users are so quick to condemn Adobe for failing to support their cameras BEFORE the *******' cameras are even released....
 
Sorry, this is a subject that I have very little patients for...
 
Personally, I find it hard to fault his reasoning although I do have sympathy for the argument that perhaps Camera Raw could perhaps be sold separately although with coding issues across various versions of Photoshop I don’t know whether this would be technically possible or indeed financially viable.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 09:42:54 PM by Forseti »
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Re: tiffs
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2009, 10:22:24 PM »
An interesting statement that makes for interesting reading.

What would really be nice is if Nikon and Canon were invited to respond.
I am all for a universal standard in raw file format, after all te computing world hasn't suffered too badly from Microsofts efforts to develop common standards.

I suppose the digital camera industry is running a bit behind in this area...

Offline anglefire

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2009, 10:34:50 PM »
I suspect some of the issues will be down to Canon/Nikon/who ever not wishing to loose their ability to keep some elements secret - like the pictures styles (Canon term for the tonal recipe) for example.

But why it has to change on the release of every new camera does seem unclear - something must be added to the header data.

One of the problems with keeping ACR backward compatable with say CS3 from CS4 is that the code of CS4 has been written to decode the ACR metadata for things like adjustment brushes etc. Though you would have thouht it possible to disable those features in CS3 like they do with elements.
Perhaps that is not possible with the current version, but with the next version, surely Adobe could do an update to CS4 to look for a switch in ACR and know if the version of ACR is not for it directly, that it can ignore it.
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Offline oRGie

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2009, 11:42:18 PM »
Interesting reading for sure..   Just a thought to throw in the mix, if canon and nikon decided to play ball and adopt either DNG or the option of it in Cam, would having a standard file format for raw actually limit the technology from moving forward ?  if canon and nikon are spending bucks on r&d to improve picture quality in line with their hardware technology improving could something like this lead to less advances ?   Perhaps r&d in canon and nikon are being innovative, whereas adobe are reactionist ?

Not meant to be siding with camera makers, just a thought.. perhaps there is no better way than the way we have now, except perhaps as i said splitting acr from ps so they can be sold seperatley, however I accept that may not be possible the way the software is now, but for future releases, as this situation doesnt look like its going away :)  not forgetting converting to DNG of course, allways an option..

Offline Oldboy

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2009, 12:03:15 AM »
Interesting reading for sure..   Just a thought to throw in the mix, if canon and nikon decided to play ball and adopt either DNG or the option of it in Cam, would having a standard file format for raw actually limit the technology from moving forward ?  if canon and nikon are spending bucks on r&d to improve picture quality in line with their hardware technology improving could something like this lead to less advances ?   Perhaps r&d in canon and nikon are being innovative, whereas adobe are reactionist ?


With the D3 you can output as a Tiff file, but at 35mb each not many people would.  :o

Offline oRGie

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2009, 03:49:46 AM »
Just as well mine doesnt do tiff, the raw files are over 25mb anyway  :D  hence the new drive and some housekeeping, all done now, cs4 installed and updated with acr5.5, new firewire cf reader is working and well quick, happy bunny..   :beer:  cs4 does look nice and bridge seems to have more functionality at first glance.

Offline anglefire

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2009, 05:40:29 AM »
Oh, yes I should have said, Bridge works well in CS4- I never used it in CS3!
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2009, 10:29:08 AM »
Quote
Perhaps r&d in canon and nikon are being innovative, whereas adobe are reactionist ?

Nope.

It's tricky to hold DNG up as the gold standard since it's from the firm we all love to hate but it's the closest to a standard we have.  It seems (I haven't read the spec in detail) that it's an extensible standard.  Tomorrow I could think of a new feature (maybe angular momentum info from the anti shake system) and add it into today's format.  Apps that speak DNG written yesterday may not be able to use the new data - but they should be able to read and process the file just like they do today.  For best results use the latest version but any version should allow you to edit the file.

There's absolutely no reason why Nikon, Canon or kings of proprietary Sony couldn't do that.  They could even shoot DNG if they wanted - I mean it's good enough for Hasselblad....  (as an interesting development - you can hack some Canons to shoot DNG....)

As for separating ACR from other products....well this is presumably possible.  You make ACR output an interim "DNG" and your other apps read that.  There are technical challenges with that like the local area adjustments.  I guess it would fit on the "hard but doable" list.  But....why should they?  You're asking a company to spend a considerable amount of time and (your) money to make their applications slower and clunkier and sell fewer of them.  That's a pretty tough sell to the accountants who run companies.
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Offline Jonathan

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Re: tiffs
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2009, 10:38:58 AM »
OK.  I take back everything I said about Hasselblad.

Just downloaded some sample raw files from their site.  They are in .fff format.  Which absolutely nothing reads - apart from their "Phocus" software.

It's possible I can't get a copy of that without paying £18K for an H3D. 

Do a bit of Googling on .fff - Thomas Knoll gets pretty angry about it......
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