End of an EraPoll - Doom and GloomDOOM and GLOOM CHAT 13-2...Outdoors - CHAT thread - ...DOOM and GLOOM ENTRIES 1...POLL - FruitOutdoors - ENTRY thread -...POLL - VehiclesENTRIES-FRUIT-Weekly Comp...CHAT-FRUIT-Weekly Comp 6-...VEHICLES - CHAT thread we...VEHICLES - ENTRY thread w...Poll - PortraitsPortraits - CHAT - Weekly...Portraits - ENTRIES-Weekl...POLL-BIRDS

Author Topic: Colour confusion  (Read 2208 times)

Offline Sarasocke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 680
    • my flickr
Colour confusion
« on: September 20, 2011, 02:20:46 PM »
So I made this book in InDesign to have printed as "PDF to Book" by Blurb.

The cover was supposed to be a rich red, in InDesign it IS a rich red, at least on my screen. C25 M100 Y94 K32.
On converting it to PDF (Blurb PDF Profile) the colour turned a sort of dull maroony colour. The finished book was OK, but not the colour I had in mind.

Is it my screen (I use Spyder 2), PDF,  InDesign?
Anyone any thoughts?


Carol aka Sarasocke 
My Gallery

Offline Oldboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5427
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 03:52:10 PM »
How many photos have you printed yourself without problems?

You put photos on here which are viewed by different PCs/Macs and no one has said you colours are odd. My guess it's a mismatch between Photoshop and Indesign or possible using your local printer profile instead of the one for Blurb. You need to check which colour profile is been used.  8)

Offline Jonathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1273
    • PeopleByRyan
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 04:30:26 PM »
It appears to be a mystery what colour space Blurb require.

There is talk in their forum of using sRGB or "Blurb colour space" but this article says they recommend CMYK spaces for PDFs - http://www.blurb.com/guides/color_management/image_prep_pdf It also says that InDesign isn't supported (though they make a plugin for it).  Which leads me to believe Blurb aren't for people who aren't super critical what colour things are printed ;)

2 things to know about CMYK
1. It's a bugger.  Maintaining colours as you go from a photo space to a CMYK space is tricky and loss of saturation and colour shift in reds is very common.  Many colours used in photos are simply out of gamut for all kinds of CMYK spaces.
2. Unless you proof in the right app they can look awful on the screen.  For example jpegs properly converted and tagged can look completely different colours in the (semi colour aware) OS X finder.  I can't see how a PC could be better at this.
It's Guest's round

Offline Hinfrance

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5174
  • Cake is good
    • Hinfrance
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 04:33:50 PM »
Reds not turning out how you expect them to are a pretty good sign that you have been using Adobe RGB (or ProPhoto) colour space in either your camera or editing software or both. The outside world almost exclusively uses sRGB which maps colours to different coordinates. There is not a bigger range of colours in Adobe RGB, but many more colour points. So if a document has an Adobe RGB colour profile and it is rendered in sRGB the reds will appear dull and sombre, the greens and yellows will seem more vibrant.

If you have been using Lightroom, then as this uses a proprietary version of ProPhoto (ProPhoto has a very wide gamut indeed) the problems would be more pronounced if the output has not been converted to the same profile as the publishing software.

Macs have a higher gamma than PCs by default, but this can be fixed ;)
Howard  My CC Gallery
My Flickr
The theory seems to be that as long as a man is a failure he is one of God's children, but that as soon as he succeeds he is taken over by the Devil. H.L Mencken.

Offline Sarasocke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 680
    • my flickr
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 08:20:15 PM »
The red was just a background created in InDesign. It wasn't a photo at all, just a box with a cmyk colour in it.

I mentioned the cmyk values above - what kind of red do you guys get? A vivid striking colour or a dull maroony one?
The change occured when converting the InDesign file into a PDF.

I'll have to see if I can load up the two versions here.
Carol aka Sarasocke 
My Gallery

Offline Cathus

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 194
    • http://blog.glnphotography.com
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 08:41:34 PM »
I seem to recall there's some settings in inDesign regarding the output of colour. I had a problem with blacks coming out grey in Acrobat PDFs, did some Googling and found the reason was this particular setting.

I can't for the life of me remember what it was though, but it was InDesign rather than monitor, colour space etc

Offline Sarasocke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 680
    • my flickr
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 11:02:58 PM »
I wanted to try and post the colour her ein the forum as it is in the InDesign file, but I can't convert it to jpeg.

If I export it to a PDF using the general "high quality print" profile, the colour isn't toned down quite as much as using the Blurb PDF profile, but it's still nowhere near as bright as the original.

I think I shall send Blurb a mail and investigate the InDesign thing at the same time.
Carol aka Sarasocke 
My Gallery

Offline Oldboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5427
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 11:17:00 PM »
Is this any help.  8)

You can set the following options in the Output area of the Export Adobe PDF dialog box. Interactions between Output options change depending on whether color management is on or off, whether the document is tagged with color profiles, and which PDF standard is selected.

Note: For quick definitions of the options in the Output area, position the pointer over an option and read the Description text box at the bottom of the dialog box.
Color ConversionSpecifies how to represent color information in the Adobe PDF file. All spot color information is preserved during color conversion; only the process color equivalents convert to the designated color space.
No Color Conversion Preserves color data as is. This is the default when PDF/X?3 is selected.

Convert to Destination Converts all colors to the profile selected for Destination. Whether the profile is included or not is determined by the Profile Inclusion Policy.

Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers)Converts colors to the destination profile space only if they have embedded profiles that differ from the destination profile (or if they are RGB colors, and the destination profile is CMYK, or vice versa). Untagged color objects (those without embedded profiles) and native objects (such as line art or type) are not converted. This option is not available if color management is off. Whether the profile is included or not is determined by the Profile Inclusion Policy.


DestinationDescribes the gamut of the final RGB or CMYK output device, such as your monitor or a SWOP standard. Using this profile, InDesign converts the document’s color information (defined by the source profile in the Working Spaces section of the Color Settings dialog box) to the color space of the target output device.

Profile Inclusion PolicyDetermines whether a color profile is included in the file. The options vary, depending on the setting in the Color Conversion menu, whether one of the PDF/X standards is selected, and whether color management is on or off.
Don’t Include ProfilesDoes not create a color-managed document with embedded color profiles.

Include All ProfilesCreates a color-managed document. If the application or output device that uses the Adobe PDF file needs to translate colors into another color space, it uses the embedded color space in the profile. Before you select this option, turn on color management and set up profile information.

Include Tagged Source ProfilesLeaves device-dependent colors unchanged and preserves device-independent colors as the nearest possible equivalent in PDF. This is a useful option for print shops that have calibrated all their devices, used that information to specify color in the file, and are only outputting to those devices.

Include All RGB And Tagged Source CMYK ProfilesIncludes any profiles for tagged RGB objects and tagged CMYK objects, such as placed objects with embedded profiles. This option also includes the Document RGB profile for untagged RGB objects.

Include Destination ProfileAssigns the destination profile to all objects. If Convert To Destination (Preserve Color Numbers) is selected, untagged objects in the same color space are assigned the destination profile so that color numbers don’t change.


Simulate OverprintSimulates the appearance of printing separations by maintaining the appearance of overprinting in composite output. When Simulate Overprint is unselected, Overprint Preview must be selected in Acrobat to see the effects of overlapping colors. When Simulate Overprint is selected, spot colors are changed to their process equivalents, and overlapping colors display and output correctly, without Overprint Preview selected in Acrobat. With Simulate Overprint on, and Compatibility (in the General area of the dialog box) set to Acrobat 4 (PDF 1.3), you can soft-proof your document’s colors directly on the monitor before they are reproduced on a particular output device.

Ink ManagerControls whether spot colors are converted to process equivalents and specifies other ink settings. If you make changes to your document using the Ink Manager (for example, if you change all spot colors to their process equivalents), those changes will be reflected in the exported file and in the saved document, but the settings won’t be saved with the Adobe PDF preset.

Output Intent Profile NameSpecifies the characterized printing condition for the document. An output intent profile is required for creating PDF/X-compliant files. This menu is only available if a PDF/X standard (or preset) is selected in the General area of the Export Adobe PDF dialog box. The available options depend on whether color management is on or off. For example, if color management is off, the menu lists only output profiles that match the destination profile’s color space. If color management is on, the output intent profile is the same profile selected for Destination (provided it is a CMYK output device).

Output Condition NameDescribes the intended printing condition. This entry can be useful for the intended receiver of the PDF document.

Output Condition IdentifierIndicates a pointer to more information on the intended printing condition. The identifier is automatically entered for printing conditions that are included in the ICC registry. This option is not available when using either of the PDF/X?3 presets or standards, because the file would fail compliance when inspected by the Preflight feature in Acrobat 7.0 Professional and later, or the Enfocus PitStop application (which is a plug?in for Acrobat 6.0).

Registry NameIndicates the web address for more information on the registry. The URL is automatically entered for ICC registry names. This option is not available when using either of the PDF/X?3 presets or standards, because the file would fail compliance when inspected by the Preflight feature in Acrobat 7.0 Professional and later, or the Enfocus PitStop application (which is a plug?in for Acrobat 6.0).

Offline ABERS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2195
    • Black and White Images by Alan Abercrombie
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 07:40:33 AM »
I think I'll go back to bed. ???

Offline Hinfrance

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5174
  • Cake is good
    • Hinfrance
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 08:18:39 AM »
I wanted to try and post the colour her ein the forum as it is in the InDesign file, but I can't convert it to jpeg.

If I export it to a PDF using the general "high quality print" profile, the colour isn't toned down quite as much as using the Blurb PDF profile, but it's still nowhere near as bright as the original.

I think I shall send Blurb a mail and investigate the InDesign thing at the same time.

To convert to jpg open your photo editor in the background, then make your .pdf full screen. Press 'print screen' - this copies the screenshot to the clipboard. Then restore your editor, paste the clipboard and save as a jpg.

But is there not an export as picture option in your dtp application? There usually is.

Some examples of colour space mismatch results:

Internal colour space sRGB, monitor ProPhoto:



Compared to ProPhoto in both spaces:

« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 08:39:23 AM by Hinfrance »
Howard  My CC Gallery
My Flickr
The theory seems to be that as long as a man is a failure he is one of God's children, but that as soon as he succeeds he is taken over by the Devil. H.L Mencken.

Offline Jonathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1273
    • PeopleByRyan
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 09:04:18 AM »
>> I mentioned the cmyk values above - what kind of red do you guys get? A vivid striking colour or a dull maroony one?

Muddy maroonish.

In Photoshop (not In-Design) I started a new doc and flooded it with the CMYK numbers you specify.  I did this in sRGB but the display is calibrated to the monitor so it will show sRGB as it should look.  Then I duplicated twice and converted to 2 different CMYK spaces.  First one is for Hahnemulle Photo rag, second is for copier paper in my Phaser.  Basically these will look like soft proofs of the colour printed on those machines.  These are left to right.  Final patch on right is a nice vibrant red in sRGB.

It's Guest's round

Offline Hinfrance

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5174
  • Cake is good
    • Hinfrance
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 11:59:51 AM »
The first three tones are very similar to the ones I get using the stated CMYK values.

They translate in my DTP software to RGB values of R156, G41, and B47. Which is that dull maroony colour.

Howard  My CC Gallery
My Flickr
The theory seems to be that as long as a man is a failure he is one of God's children, but that as soon as he succeeds he is taken over by the Devil. H.L Mencken.

Offline Sarasocke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 680
    • my flickr
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 12:25:05 PM »
I'm going to have to read through OB's post carefully - thanks OB!

Howard - I can convert PDS to JPEG but not InDesign files, at least as far as I know. They would have to go through the PDF stage which would defeat the purpose I guess  :-\

Thanks for the comparisons Jonathan, I shall give somethjing similar a go too.
Carol aka Sarasocke 
My Gallery

Offline Hinfrance

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5174
  • Cake is good
    • Hinfrance
Re: Colour confusion
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 09:02:17 AM »
I'm going to have to read through OB's post carefully - thanks OB!

Howard - I can convert PDS to JPEG but not InDesign files, at least as far as I know. They would have to go through the PDF stage which would defeat the purpose I guess  :-\

Thanks for the comparisons Jonathan, I shall give somethjing similar a go too.

The print screen method should work - or have you got a Mac? In which case maybe one of the other users might know what can be done.

What's most concerning is that the maroon colour appears on your screen as a bright red - which suggests that there is a very weird colour management set up in In-Design
Howard  My CC Gallery
My Flickr
The theory seems to be that as long as a man is a failure he is one of God's children, but that as soon as he succeeds he is taken over by the Devil. H.L Mencken.

 

latest Posts

Subject Board Views/Replies Member Date & Time
xx End of an Era General Discussion 58/5 jinky Last post Today at 06:40:48 AM
xx Poll - Doom and Gloom International Weekly Comp Entries 168/5 Jediboy Last post September 26, 2020, 09:30:50 PM
xx DOOM and GLOOM CHAT 13-20/092020 International Weekly Comp Entries 207/6 jinky Last post September 22, 2020, 09:54:12 AM
xx Outdoors - CHAT thread - Weekly comp 20/09/20 - 27/09/20 International Weekly Comp Entries 134/4 Oldboy Last post September 22, 2020, 12:03:31 AM
xx DOOM and GLOOM ENTRIES 13-20/092020 International Weekly Comp Entries 136/3 Oldboy Last post September 21, 2020, 11:51:45 PM
xx POLL - Fruit International Weekly Comp Entries 217/4 jinky Last post September 21, 2020, 08:58:04 AM
xx Outdoors - ENTRY thread - Weekly Comp 20/09/30 - 27/09/20 International Weekly Comp Entries 50/0 Jediboy Last post September 20, 2020, 12:03:53 PM
xx POLL - Vehicles International Weekly Comp Entries 347/6 Jediboy Last post September 15, 2020, 09:01:03 AM