I need to start with an apology:
I'm Sorry, but I just finished reading http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/28/charlie-brooker-microsoft-mac-windows (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/28/charlie-brooker-microsoft-mac-windows) and thought I'd vent a bit. I can't be arsed to register with the grauniad, so I thought I'd do it here. I could also have included it in the windows forum, but hey, it can't go everywhere. Enjoy :tup:
I first used an Apple ][ in the very early '80s. It was a nice little machine, you needed to type "GO C700" to get it to boot from the floppy drive - just one step above flipping switches on the front panel. The machine was a real hobbyists machine, it came with a full schematic and instructions for writing your own Basic programs, and creating your own peripherals. Fantastic!
The next experience with Apple was with one of the original Macs...the one parodied in Bloom County as the Banana Jr (http://toastytech.com/guis/banana2.html). It was a cute and cuddly little machine that showed its equivalent of the blue screen of death, a series of friendly little bombs, randomly every minute/5 minutes/half hour, just as you were about to press "save". I blame it for my weak follicles, owing to the stress induced by it and the rending of hair. In the meantime, Microsoft was plugging away in the stone age at it's character in cell, command line interface and just dabbling with windows, it was nice and reliable at the time.
I recently bought an Ipod nano. It's nice. The user interface is somewhat irritating at times (why can't I use the wheelie thing to skip quickly through a pod cast? Or can I? No instructions, nothing obvious works for this other than holding down the >>| button until it seems to find the place...except sometimes it just keeps rewinding/fastforwarding with no way to stop it until it hits the beginning/end of the podcast).
I acknowledge that the Mac's are generally superior/easier to use: in form (they are prettier, more girlie, I'm surprised there isn't a Jimmy Choo version); perhaps in design (hardware is mostly PC based now...so what's the difference other than the trendy box?); and definitely in user interface experimentation (although it's the user that is the guinea pig). Are they really easier to use? To me a Nikon is easier to use than a Canon/Sony/Pentax/etc, some may argue otherwise. Ease of use depends entirely on what you're used to. They do boot faster, and generally run faster, but mostly because they aren't hobbled with anti-virus software. Security? Well, I don't think it's really
that much more secure than the latest versions of Windows; security is more a matter of how you use the system (is your everyday account an administrator/root/system account, or do use use an unprivileged account; are you inclined to run things from the internet without considering its origins; do you use a firewall, or have you disabled it because you can't be bothered to configure it properly and so it is difficult to printing to the network printer; do you use a condom with a stranger :o; etc. etc.). One major downside for the macintosh is the lack of applications (although it is possible to run things in a windows emulator), but then this is a matter of whether you really need those applications anyway, and will improve as the iMarketShare grows.
So, why do I hate Apple? It's partly because of their marketing strategy. Vertical integration of the marketplace: force the user to only use the products chosen by Apple, you use them as we tell you how we want you to. You want a legitimate Iphone, sorry, you have to get a subscription with the service provider of Apple's choosing. You want to use another MP3 player with Itunes? Sorry, only Ipods need apply. This does make for a more stable platform, you control all the hardware/software and can code for them - non supported hardware need not apply and the platform doesn't suffer from poorly written 3rd party device drivers. So quality control
should be better.
Ok, the situation with regards to 3rd party hardware has gotten better, you can now use a non-iMouse on your mac, and enjoy being able to use more than just the single digit that apple thinks you were born with (multiple buttons on a mouse...what a concept). You can plug in a non-iDisk for backups. But all this has come about due to the ubiquity of the USB port and forced Apple's hand, requiring Apple to support it and the various peripherals designed for the PC.
But what do I dislike the most about apple? The hip and trendy gitoids that suffer the need to massage their superiority complexes at every turn when they see a Windoze user (it's almost neurotic how they feel insecure in their choice of operating system and have to justify it on a continual basis to those that don't use it). People use Windows because they have to: it's required by your company; a Mac is too expensive (bang for the buck); etc. On the other hand, it appears that people use Macs because they are buying into a lifestyle culture. So, the windows users are the slaves, and the mac users are more the sheep following the herd to the fashionable apple store because they all want to be the same (which is ironic to me, because they convince themselves that they are buying the stuff to make themselves appear different).
So:
- I don't like windows - but have to use it as it's the platform at work for corporate applications, the wife and kids are used to it (I don't have the energy to hand hold them through a migration to Linux)
- I don't like the Mac culture and the vertical market integration - I prefer choice and I choose not to participate, and the price tag is not worth it, in my mind (I'd rather have a life than an Iphone)
- I like Linux, but don't have the time or inclination anymore to get it to integrate with everything (I use SuSE at work for real applications - physics simulations, data analysis, etc., but don't have to integrate additional hardware to it
- I'd dearly love OpenVMS to return...at last an OS that was designed and not hydroponically grown like an obscure biological entity
Of all the above options, though, windowsXP provides the best solution for me - it's a cheaper option, works in general and isn't overly aggravating. Ah, but then why write this? It's because of the annoyance of the gitoids that just get on my tits sometimes.
In summary, it's not the hardware/software that I dislike, but the corporate policy and the human drivel(*) that surrounds it. :legit:
Sorry for the ramble. It must be Monday. Never really got the hang of Mondays.
H.
(*) That's not to say that every iOwner is one of the gitoids. That would be imposing a general observation on a specific case. ;)
I don't see it as a rant - more an expression of frustration.
My favourite OS was that of the Amiga -v3 to be precise. Way ahead of its time and mutli tasking like Microsoft would still give its right arm for but which the Apple handles with ease.
But then the Amiga OS was built in the same way as Mac OS so i suppose that may explain the similarities.
Is a Mac expensive? Yep - no doubt about it - but here is the real rub. It is just sooo much quicker than any comparable MS Windows machine it starts to balance out.
Let us consider that i earn £20 per hour. So an hour of my time equals £20.
I can assure you that each week i spend at least an hour less waiting for the hour glass to disappear after booting up and logging into an MS Windows system when on the Mac.
End result is - after 52 weeks i have saved myself an amazing £1040 in time that is mine to do with not Wintels.
I do not need a multitude of security software and a platoon of virtual guards to ensure my system is safe. It just isn't fool of all the VB and other MS loopholes.
I do not suffer the (what i now realise is a large amount) of system hangs and need to back things up every 10 minutes for fear of it breaking down.
I do not have to suffer the ignominy of waiting 10 minutes for the Spam filters clear out all the crap that MS seems o allow in but which the Mac seems to filter with ease when i open an e-mail package.
I do not need a 1Tb hard drive to install the Bloat OS and all the Bloat Software - and yes it is bloatware - and it was so even under DOS. Did you ever check how many times you had installed the DOS 4 handler? Every program had its own copy. Why? Think about it - how has Snow Leopard actually reduced the amount of Disk space needed as opposed to Wintel Law requiring a machine that doubles in memory, processor and hard drive space with every new version of the OS and almost with every Service Pack release. It's sloppy coding - simple as that.
You are right- i am lucky i can afford a lovely 24" iMac - but i don't buy into the Apple Corporate gumph. I buy into something that does what i want it to and in a simple and reliable fashion.
I don't have an iPod, iTouch, iPhone or any other "i" device. My external back drive is a Western Digital - no way i'm paying for the Apple version - waster of money!
Bill Gates has done a great thing in bringing some form of order to the computing masses but MS software is like the MS illness - it cripples its owner in a terrible way.
I bought into the MS way, i studied for my beloved MSCE etc and then woke up one day and realised that all was not good. All was not even acceptable.
I done my sums, saved my money and bought a Mac - not because of the Apple way - but because i just wanted a more simple and reliable computer experience.
Anybody who thinks about it before buying a Mac is missing the point ;)
I am cool. Therefore I use Macs. Seemples.
Quote from: picsfor on September 28, 2009, 02:31:43 PM
I don't see it as a rant - more an expression of frustration.
My favourite OS was that of the Amiga -v3 to be precise. Way ahead of its time and mutli tasking like Microsoft would still give its right arm for but which the Apple handles with ease.
But then the Amiga OS was built in the same way as Mac OS so i suppose that may explain the similarities.
Never really got into the amigas, but have some friends that swear by the commodore C64.
QuoteIs a Mac expensive? Yep - no doubt about it - but here is the real rub. It is just sooo much quicker than any comparable MS Windows machine it starts to balance out.
Actually, I find that it's a personal time management issue. If you learn to multitask effectively, then this equation is a misleading point. For example, my workflow:
- unlock office
- get laptop out of bag
- drop into docking station
- power on
- go to coffee machine
- turn it on (it's a senseo) so it will start to heat up
- take reservoir to sink & fill
- go back to PC, log in
- place reservoir back in coffee machine
- place coffee pad in coffee machine
- place mug under spout
- press button to make coffee
- add milk
- go back to computer, sit down and start working.
So, I don't even notice that the machine has taken a few minutes to cold boot. So, the time you refer to is not "lost", just made better use of.
H.
Quote
I do not suffer the (what i now realise is a large amount) of system hangs and need to back things up every 10 minutes for fear of it breaking down.
I do not have to suffer the ignominy of waiting 10 minutes for the Spam filters clear out all the crap that MS seems o allow in but which the Mac seems to filter with ease when i open an e-mail package.
I don't seem to suffer these things either. Spam is dealt with at the server, where it should be. I think I now get 1-2 genuine spam messages a day now. System hangs are pretty much a thing of the past. I can't remember the last time I had to forcibly reboot the machine. The hard drive is only a 40 Gb one, and I still have 7 Gb free (most of the remaining space is MP3s, photos and a good bit of work related data).
Quote
with every new version of the OS and almost with every Service Pack release. It's sloppy coding - simple as that.
Sloppy coding comes with everything. The reason all of these DLLs are re-distributed with each application is to ensure that the DLLs are available on every target system. You'll find the same is true of the shareable object files on Linux (I think we've currently got 6 versions of the GCC libraries on our work machines, just to make sure everything works).
QuoteYou are right- i am lucky i can afford a lovely 24" iMac - but i don't buy into the Apple Corporate gumph. I buy into something that does what i want it to and in a simple and reliable fashion.
And that's exactly the way that tools should be bought. Just others have different priorities and user requirements.
QuoteBill Gates has done a great thing in bringing some form of order to the computing masses but MS software is like the MS illness - it cripples its owner in a terrible way.
Yup, like Hitler managed to unite the French and English in a common cause. :) (BTW, that's not an instance of Godwin's Law...)
Quote
I done my sums, saved my money and bought a Mac - not because of the Apple way - but because i just wanted a more simple and reliable computer experience.
And I've done my sums, saved my money and bought a PC (four years ago) with XP - not because it's beautiful - but because it works well enough, is simple and reliable enough.
;)
H.
Quote from: Jonathan on September 28, 2009, 02:37:24 PM
Anybody who thinks about it before buying a Mac is missing the point ;)
I am cool. Therefore I use Macs. Seemples.
You forgot the cool smiley! 8)
Quote from: hevans on September 28, 2009, 02:47:16 PM
And I've done my sums, saved my money and bought a PC (four years ago) with XP - not because it's beautiful - but because it works well enough, is simple and reliable enough.
;)
H.
I did my sums several years ago, saved for the bits, and built my own PC. The "design spec" was for a PC to be overclocked until it's screaming for mercy, but in reality the gains were negligible. Therefore, I'd built a PC that was built to last. I plumped for Linux because I was tired of Windows instabilities and bloatyness, along with the inexplicable requirement for full reinstallations every X months. Yes, Linux wasn't easy at first, but once I'd figured the Linux doesn't like doing things like Windows (aka "Forget everything and start again"), I was fine.
Now with the advent of 64-bit processors, Linux again gives me no reason to 'jump ship'. Linux does everything I want, and I know where I stand with it. I don't need to be molly-coddled through basic procedures, nor am I too afraid to get stuck in with Bash scripting and command line interfaces/terminals.
I'm a Linux user, and I'm 40 years old. :)
P.S. Get it right at the start...
[user@home]$ sudo apt-get remove emacs
... Vim's already installed. :D
Quote from: Hybridphotog on September 28, 2009, 03:17:55 PM
I did my sums several years ago, saved for the bits, and built my own PC. The "design spec" was for a PC to be overclocked until it's screaming for mercy, but in reality the gains were negligible. Therefore, I'd built a PC that was built to last. I plumped for Linux because I was tired of Windows instabilities and bloatyness, along with the inexplicable requirement for full reinstallations every X months. Yes, Linux wasn't easy at first, but once I'd figured the Linux doesn't like doing things like Windows (aka "Forget everything and start again"), I was fine.
In this instance I find most of the older styled OS have a fault, but it's more a fault of how the systems must be used. It goes like this: a service didn't start correctly, so you get it to start from the command line, then edit the appropriate /etc/init.rc file so it should start the next time. But you don't reboot to test, because the users are already online and working. The test comes at the next reboot, when it fails again, but for another reason: the change has broken something else further down the boot chain.
Quote
Now with the advent of 64-bit processors, Linux again gives me no reason to 'jump ship'. Linux does everything I want, and I know where I stand with it. I don't need to be molly-coddled through basic procedures, nor am I too afraid to get stuck in with Bash scripting and command line interfaces/terminals.
Well, it's tcsh for me, but more from familiarity than anything. But yes, this is something that is sorely missing on all windows platforms - a good command line interface. Some things are just plain easier to do from the command line, e.g. rename every file in a directory tree so there is an "A" before the file extension.
Quote
I'm a Linux user, and I'm 40 years old. :)
I'm a Linux/Windows/VMS user, and I'm nearly 100 years older.
Quote
P.S. Get it right at the start...
[user@home]$ sudo apt-get remove emacs
... Vim's already installed. :D
Now I am worried. In the first instance, I will usually fire up vi...if I'm programming fortran/C++/python/etc, then I'll usually wimp out and fire up xemacs.
H.
Quote from: hevans on September 28, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
In this instance I find most of the older styled OS have a fault, but it's more a fault of how the systems must be used. It goes like this: a service didn't start correctly, so you get it to start from the command line, then edit the appropriate /etc/init.rc file so it should start the next time. But you don't reboot to test, because the users are already online and working. The test comes at the next reboot, when it fails again, but for another reason: the change has broken something else further down the boot chain.
When I'd decided on Linux, I plumped for RedHat (5, iirc). After a crash-course on user permissions, and why root shouldn't be used at all really (as root,"rmdir /boot" taught me a lesson...), I returned to Windows and promised to give Linux another go after another release. A magazine had a copy of Mandrake on its cover DVD (8, iirc). A space was made on my drives, Mandrake was installed. Two or three months later, Windows was removed from my PC.
Mandrake became Mandriva, and updating the distro became more and more problematic. Ubuntu was tested out, and found to have a very functional installer/update system.
The rest is history. ;)
Quote from: hevans on September 28, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
Well, it's tcsh for me, but more from familiarity than anything. But yes, this is something that is sorely missing on all windows platforms - a good command line interface. Some things are just plain easier to do from the command line, e.g. rename every file in a directory tree so there is an "A" before the file extension.
A useable regex would do the Windows CLI a world of good.
Quote from: hevans on September 28, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
Now I am worried. In the first instance, I will usually fire up vi...if I'm programming fortran/C++/python/etc, then I'll usually wimp out and fire up xemacs.
H.
:set filetype=fortran
... or...
:set filetype=python
...
:set filetype=cpp
I'm sure there's some ~.vimrc function in there... but I'm very rusty with my Vimrc'ing. :(
This is all very well, but have you ever tried to calibrate a monitor under Linux? I have, not managed it yet. Is there is 16 bit image editor for Linux? Again I've looked but not found it. Virtual Box doesn't run everything. So for the time being cash, functionality and the lack of weeks of time to learn an OS over again mean it has to be Windows. I'm not particularly happy about that (especially being stuck with the accursed Vista), but that's the way it is.
Our ancient laptop runs Freespire, and very nice it is too for non specialised stuff.
Bring back GEM. ;D
Quote from: Jonathan on September 28, 2009, 02:37:24 PM
Anybody who thinks about it before buying a Mac is missing the point ;)
I am cool. Therefore I use Macs. Seemples.
You got me there Jonathan - cool is something that's never quite made it as far as me :-[
Back to the original statement...
With regards to time lost on a Windows computer - i was referring to the omnipresent hour glass every time you try to multi task.
It is the nature of Microsoft's beast that true multi tasking is beyond it.
That's where i get my lost time. Whilst i appreciate that time management may over come the booting of a Windows computer - it can not over come the lag experienced when opening Photoshop , Lightroom etc - or even MS software such as Access or Excel. I've built my own desktops, servers - the fastest ran under Win 2K and was actually quite fast - but that was because it was a dual processor machine and i'd customised the way the separate processors handled the work load - a feature removed with the introduction of XP!
Then we come to backing up. Time Machine backs up to an EHD with out interruption to what's going on - on the fly. Still searching for the Windows equivelant. Any similar back up system works like most virus checkers - they drain the system and create more instances of the dreaded hour glass.
I've worked with Microsoft since 1991 when Commodore imploded. I haven't made the swap on a whim. Macs really are faster and more efficient. Can't say how they rate against Linux as i've never really got the bug - that or i'm to lazy to go back to the old "hacking" days!
I do appreciate your argument though that people have to use MS at work and need compatibility, and that was half the reason we had Windows. I help a few self employed people with their computers so have to have a windows machine for that - but otherwise i would give it up for lent.
Quote from: Tringle WP on September 29, 2009, 09:36:04 AM
This is all very well, but have you ever tried to calibrate a monitor under Linux? I have, not managed it yet.
This always grates with me. "Where's such a thing for Linux?" If you want it, you'll find it... it's out there. People have to remember, Linux isn't a 'rev-n-go' operating system.
I've just checked my monitors calibration using nothing more than a webpage or two, and "xgamma"...
http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/113936 (http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/113936)
Quote from: Tringle WP on September 29, 2009, 09:36:04 AM
Is there is 16 bit image editor for Linux? Again I've looked but not found it.
Gimp..
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29550503 (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29550503)
The bottom line is... Linux also doesn't appeal to some people, just as Windows doesn't appeal to some people, just as Apple doesn't appeal to some people.
The best operating system for anyone is the one that you feel most comfortable with. Isn't freedom of choice a good thing?
Actually I have looked and looked for a way to calibrate my monitors with linux. The only way I have found is to refer linux to a windows calibration file on a dual boot machine. The calibration has to be done under windows. The ONLY way to calibrate a monitor is to use a colorimeter.
The article you have referred to above contains a fundamental error in the preface that makes the rest of it a complete waste of time: "To begin with, understand that all display calibration has one goal: appearing correct to your eye". This is, with respect, rubbish; the goal of monitor calibration is to ensure that anything you see on your monitor looks exactly the same on any other properly calibrated monitor. Effectively it should appear identical on any other sRGB device.
Later on the author admits that linux simply does not support colorimeters: "Sticking with this hardware-is-better-than-software theme, there are a few companies that make hardware display calibration tools; they look like three-legged spiders that stick to the surface of your monitor and feed info back through USB cables. To my knowledge, none of these devices is supported under Linux . . ." Indeed not.
I already have GIMP 2.6.7. It does not support my camera RAW files. Which is odd because UFRaw always used to, and I thought that it was built into GIMP now.
Don't get me wrong I am a linux fan, but it is simply not suited to photography or video work as it stands at the moment.
Picsfor, Linux just flies compared to windows, significantly faster. Example my antique laptop (750mhz and 512mb ram) used to take up to 8 minutes to boot up XP, compared to 45 seconds for Freespire linux.
And the windows backup I don't notice running is Syncback. I use the free version as I only ever back up data. http://www.2brightsparks.com/downloads.html
Ultimately as is said - as much comes down to personal choice as available budget.
More than aware of how Linux flies over Windows.
I think i've rather turned Hughes rant into my rant and i didn't mean that to happen.
I think i've just had it with Windows and find it amazing that people can still defend it after trying something else!
Quote from: picsfor on September 29, 2009, 11:41:00 PM
Ultimately as is said - as much comes down to personal choice as available budget.
More than aware of how Linux flies over Windows.
I think i've rather turned Hughes rant into my rant and i didn't mean that to happen.
I think i've just had it with Windows and find it amazing that people can still defend it after trying something else!
Simply the availability of applications - it is the de facto world standard. End of story.
Quote from: Tringle WP on September 30, 2009, 07:24:44 AM
Simply the availability of applications - it is the de facto world standard. End of story.
Hmm....I've done this before and it never seems to take off. Name me something you can do on a PC that you can't do on a Mac. There are several apps that are only written for one platform but then nobody complains you can't run Final Cut on a PC - they just go buy a Mac. I think we're pretty good for most stuff.
I use an XP emulator to run
1. IE6 - my bank officially supports Mac browsers but trust me they don't work with their site properly
2. A very exotic piece of s/w my Kids' lab custom wrote that they see no need to rewrite for a different OS.
Other than that, it's all good.
Quote from: Jonathan on September 30, 2009, 11:11:23 AM
I use an XP emulator to run
1. IE6 - my bank officially supports Mac browsers but trust me they don't work with their site properly
2. A very exotic piece of s/w my Kids' lab custom wrote that they see no need to rewrite for a different OS.
And therein lies the problem. You have to load an emulator because you NEED to emulate....what, and why? THis is the reason most of us stick with windows, that and we're old and can't be arsed to learn a new interface/look & feel/set of hot keys/etc.
and point #2 is the crux of the problem. Until the Mac market share has reached a critical limit, you won't find huge numbers of cross-over applications.
Windows got this years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8To-6VIJZRE&feature=related :2funny:
Mac, instead, likes to keep this aspect under considerable more control. Which has the advantages of ensuring a quality control level, and a lack of more dangerous applications (but security is an issue everyone should deal with more rigorously). But does stymie the odd informal developer's activities and the availability/porting of apps.
H.
Um, no. Web browsers work on Macs. 99.9% of websites that work at all work on Macs. Abbey Business banking website works on Macs. It's just there's a bug in their money transfer option that makes it fail in any browser. In IE it happens that the failure is handled in a way that the money gets transferred, in all other browsers it doesn't. They only tested it in one browser and can't be bothered to fix it. Given they are a banking system this makes the clowns at PR look good - at least they aren't trusted with anything important. Arguably IE's behaviour is incorrect but, you know....
As for the other app...AFAIK it's used by fewer than 2 dozen people in the world. At least 2 of these use it on a Mac. It could be ported but what's the point?
Other esoteric apps I use are written in Java which runs equally happily on Mac, PC or (probably) Linux.
But apart from those and a couple of apps designed to stop me listening to music I've paid for I haven't found anything lacking in the last couple of years.
First thing I looked at today: checked the firmware updates for my Metz flashgun - windows only.
A flashgun with firmware upgrades????
Oh yeah, the SB900 has those. But it can be programmed via the hotshoe using a D3 :)
But Windoze only upgrades from Metz are just bizarre. Especially as it's probably only a short code loader and the real code runs on the flashgun.
Programmed via a hotshoe? How primitive :D
I've been skim reading this thread for a few days and will add this.
I have a desktop with Vista 64, CS4 Office 2007 etc - works well and I like it - my first Pc was in 1990 ish, Windows 3.0 or 3.1.
I then considered Mac's to be expensive, but good if you were into graphics and stuff.
One of my work mates bought a Mac some 5 or 6 years ago to learn a new OS and be different. Still has a Mac
One of my mates from Poly went the Linux route - and uses virtual machines to play with Windows when needed. He loves it!!
I bought a MAC laptop the other month - and I do like it - a lot- and I would consider a desktop next time around - but I think there are some things that I can't do on a MAC - one is Office for MAC (2008?) which doesn't support Visual Basic and I do play with that at times.
There do seem to be a lot of programmers that just work with Windows - I think they are just lazy on the whole and come the revolution they will all be put.............. sorrry off on one again. :)
Quote from: Tringle WP on September 30, 2009, 03:25:55 PM
Programmed via a hotshoe? How primitive :D
Um not really. I thought it was pretty cool. To use an SB900 you need an SB900, a camera and a compact flash card. So those are the 3 things you need to upgrade it. Better than most computer related ideas Nikon have.
Quoteone is Office for MAC (2008?) which doesn't support Visual Basic and I do play with that at times.
You mean the language that opened up office documents to all kinds of nasty viruses etc? Can't say I miss it TBH :) This (http://www.pagetable.com/?p=35) should keep you happy for a bit. If you can't do it on a Vic20 with 3.5K of memory it's not worth doing.
BTW if you try that then remember that Commodore Basic uses all capitals............
QuoteYou mean the language that opened up office documents to all kinds of nasty viruses etc? Can't say I miss it TBH :)
Yeah thats the one - but as its code I write, its pretty safe! It automatically pulls a load of data off the net, formats it and then is used elsewhere. Can't say what for - I'd have to kill you! (But is legal!)
QuoteThis (http://www.pagetable.com/?p=35) should keep you happy for a bit. If you can't do it on a Vic20 with 3.5K of memory it's not worth doing.
Now thats cool - I did a lot of basic programming on both Commadore Pets and BBC Masters.
Quote from: anglefire on September 30, 2009, 07:34:17 PM
It automatically pulls a load of data off the net, formats it and then is used elsewhere. Can't say what for - I'd have to kill you! (But is legal!)
Automator plus Apple Script (or any scripting language) could almost certainly do this.
Yes you are right I'm sure - but two reasons for not doing it - 1. I've already done it and it works. 2. I've not learnt Apple script yet!
And I'm still going though my pictures from the holiday - and I'm learning FBD language for about 3 different manufactures controllers (All similar, all different!) and about to start to learn Ladder. My heads a shed at the moment!
Quote from: anglefire on September 30, 2009, 07:53:31 PM
And I'm still going though my pictures from the holiday - and I'm learning FBD language for about 3 different manufactures controllers (All similar, all different!) and about to start to learn Ladder. My heads a shed at the moment!
Hmm, yes, I know that feeling. Started with Basic (that apple I script/compiler looks amusing), Fortran, moved on to assembler, then Pascal, C, ADA, C++, perl (hideous language), java (one of the more enjoyable ones), javascript, PVWave, IDL, and now contemplating python or php. It seems that every year there is another "Must learn"/"silver bullet" language. In the end, you use one for a while, then it's recommended that you move to the next best one, or in some cases mandated by the need to support it.
Now, I tend to stick to Fortran (it's old but still great for simulations), C++ (CERN code requires that), IDL (a data analysis language, like matlab but better IMHO), the odd bit of scriptwriting in tcsh, and VisualBasic for integrating DLLs to Excel, etc.
In the end, it all ends up as a congealed mess in the mind where you can't remember the syntax of any of them and spend most of the time refreshing the memory...must be stored in DRAM.
H.
Quote from: hevans on September 30, 2009, 09:53:46 PM
Hmm, yes, I know that feeling. Started with Basic (that apple I script/compiler looks amusing), Fortran, moved on to assembler, then Pascal, C, ADA, C++, perl (hideous language), java (one of the more enjoyable ones), javascript, PVWave, IDL, and now contemplating python or php. It seems that every year there is another "Must learn"/"silver bullet" language. In the end, you use one for a while, then it's recommended that you move to the next best one, or in some cases mandated by the need to support it.
Now, I tend to stick to Fortran (it's old but still great for simulations), C++ (CERN code requires that), IDL (a data analysis language, like matlab but better IMHO), the odd bit of scriptwriting in tcsh, and VisualBasic for integrating DLLs to Excel, etc.
After learning several variations of BASIC in my teenage years, and various attempts at learning machine code (the only real way to harness what power lay within a ZX-81), I attempted to master COBOL (RM COBOL-85, iirc). Moving on from that headache, I plumped for C++ and "night school", as I was deemed 'too dense to understand 'C'' (aka "I failed the C&G COBOL exam"). But, not even that could tempt me back into programming, as the lessons were all too strict and rigid. I couldn't skip subjects, regardless of the subject matter being irrelevant. Although I did plough through a VB class (which was fun, admittedly, as the tutor had to refer to myself a few times), but that only stirred the programmer within me once again.
Can't keep a good coder down... so I finally ended up with a good grasp of VB (3 and 4), PASCAL, HTML, CSS and PHP.
... some of which has been flexed recently... ;)
I used VBA quite a bit with Access and Excel, and even have a full copy of VB6 and all the disks. I used to love DataEase and build many applications using that. :tup:
Started out with CECIL when at school and ten moved onto Basic and Fortran.
Went in to machine code with ZX81 and then the C64 took it new levels - almost everything required peeking and poking the registry somewhere.
Onto the Amiga and various versions of Basic plus an intro to C
Finally onto the PC where i played with C, C++, Basic, VB, Pascal, Delphi (Pascal by another name, i know), HTML, CSS.
Whilst studying with the OU coded an ATM machine in full machine code - that was real fun, and then they moved me onto the object orientated muck and i just gave up.
I enjoyed creating and modifying databases in MS Access and the supplied VB and is probably the only thing i miss from MS Windows.
Maybe i'll just have to get back into C++ or Basic - who knows... i might just leave it with re-learning HTML and CSS with drop of SQL.
Of course, i've just remembered the days when you had to "program" your modem to dial into BBs'. Handshakes and all that - the buzz you got out of a successful connection and paying the enormous fees for being able to access a bulletin board at baud rate of 9.6k :D . Ah, "Hello World" had nothing on that fun! Almost as joyful as backing up to cassette and re-loaidng it another day!
Quote from: picsfor on October 01, 2009, 01:23:05 AM
Of course, i've just remembered the days when you had to "program" your modem to dial into BBs'. Handshakes and all that - the buzz you got out of a successful connection and paying the enormous fees for being able to access a bulletin board at baud rate of 9.6k :D . Ah, "Hello World" had nothing on that fun! Almost as joyful as backing up to cassette and re-loaidng it another day!
Ah, the good old days. :) Kids today are pampered. :doh: I remember logging in with a 300 baud modem. It was "fun" to watch the characters appear one by one and scroll across the screen, just like in the movies (remember "Wargames"?).
Anyone remembering trying to download programs off the TV onto the BBC micro via a little white flashing pixel.
Yup, kids today have no idea how easy they have it. ::)
H.
I'm afraid I hate the whole Mac thing. Here's why.
Apple Mac and Windows both run on Intel processors. So a Mac is actually a PC.
Enterprise level server facilities don't really exist for Macs. If you're using a Mac in a large organisation, it's getting it's IP address from a Windows or Linux server. And most other stuff.
The Mac OS will only run on a limited range of computers ie. the ones that Mac produce. Windows and Linux will run on a huge range of hardware. It has been pointed out that this means that testing and coding are easier. So how come there were all the quality issues with Macs late 2005/early 2006? Everyone I knew had to send their Mac back to the shop.
So how come, with limited functionality, limited compatibility, and less testing and development, the Mac is so expensive?
I know the new version of the OS is very cheap. Is it OS Snow Tiger Leopard Pixie or something? I should bloody well hope so - It's just a tweak of the Berkeley Standard Distribution of Unix. Which is free.
I know that Mac service is excellent. So are Tesco's - they replaced my Acer when it went wrong.
Security. Mac owners are aware that there is a 'new threat' now which may actually have some implications for Macs. However, it's only when you install something dodgy from a web site. No sh*t, Sherlock. That's how we get viruses. If we run our PC as root and install anything, then we get what we deserve.
I'm an IT security consultant. I'm:
CISSP,
CLAS,
PCI DSS certified
and others. I've never ever ever ever heard a security decision or, or a security risk, being raised in all the projects I've worked on based on which of the current operating systems is used. Never. Ever. If you think your system's secure just by choosing a certain operating system, then you're way off the mark. Look at how you dispose of discs and your HR procedures first. And a hundred other things.
And the smugness. I'm jealous of the smugness. Very jealous. I'll never be smug about owning a PC. I admit it.
I've thought about adding a brushed aluminium casing to my Acer. But I know better than to try it.
:tup:
I'm guessing then, Chris, that you'll not be getting a Mac any time soon? :)
The more I learn about computers , the less I want to know...But I did enjoy your post chris.
Graham. :)
Bring back Gem! :2funny: :2funny:
'Bring back Gem!' - they don't call you oldboy for nothing!
Over half the people on here have never even heard of it, and some are doubtless not even old enough to remember it.
I miss punch cards - at least you know what you'd coded and submitted to the mainframe for batch processing :)
Quote from: hevans on October 01, 2009, 06:32:03 AM
Quote from: picsfor on October 01, 2009, 01:23:05 AM
Of course, i've just remembered the days when you had to "program" your modem to dial into BBs'. Handshakes and all that - the buzz you got out of a successful connection and paying the enormous fees for being able to access a bulletin board at baud rate of 9.6k :D . Ah, "Hello World" had nothing on that fun! Almost as joyful as backing up to cassette and re-loaidng it another day!
Ah, the good old days. :) Kids today are pampered. :doh: I remember logging in with a 300 baud modem. It was "fun" to watch the characters appear one by one and scroll across the screen, just like in the movies (remember "Wargames"?).
Anyone remembering trying to download programs off the TV onto the BBC micro via a little white flashing pixel.
Yup, kids today have no idea how easy they have it. ::)
H.
i even remember as far back as the ist ipod!!!old or what?
Whilst I have a lot of sympathy and, to be fair, agreement in much of what Chris says, my next desktop will probably be a MAC.
Many reasons are exactly the same as Chris has used for using PC's!
Over the years I have built, upgraded and generally used PC's. Nearly everyone has had a problem at sometime with something not agreeing with something else. Upgrading the version of Windows has nearly always meant the machine slowed down and needed more hard drive space. So meant another upgrade!
The latest experience with my Dad's PC and Windows 7 has really nailed the coffin on the PC for me.
Yes MAC's are more expensive (Not as much as they used to be!), yes they too have quirks, but as they are built with the same bits, there are less issues with compatibility. Indeed the upgrade of my MACbook to Snow Leopard went without a hitch and virtually no input once I hit the go button. And its quicker than before.
Oh, and the first PC I used was a Commadore Pet. Followed by BBC Master and then I forget what was next!
Quote from: anglefire on November 08, 2009, 08:15:34 PM
but as they are built with the same bits, there are less issues with compatibility.
I've been dealing with someone recently who wanted to upgrade the graphics card that came with his PowerMac to a better one becasue he couldn't get the performance required. He has had a shed load of problems getting one that is compatible and gives the performance he expects\wants.
There's pro's and con's for both.....
As I put in the Windows 7 thread, I installed Windows 7 on my laptop and workstation this week, both took about 15 minutes with minimal input required and both are performing faster that they previously were.
Mac products generally do look the business though, much better designed :tup:
Steve
Quote from: picsfor on November 08, 2009, 06:44:36 PM
I miss punch cards - at least you know what you'd coded and submitted to the mainframe for batch processing :)
You're joking. :o I remember spending 5 or 6 hrs. at night and all day Sat. & Sun. at university trying to get programs to run without success.
Putting a stack of cards a foot tall through the computer only to get 'error' at the other end. No indication what caused the error either. Hated them with a passion. >:(
Quote from: picsfor on November 08, 2009, 06:44:36 PM
'Bring back Gem!' - they don't call you oldboy for nothing!
Over half the people on here have never even heard of it, and some are doubtless not even old enough to remember it.
I miss punch cards - at least you know what you'd coded and submitted to the mainframe for batch processing :)
Yes, and IBM PC's with drive A and B but no C. ;D
Quote from: spinner on November 08, 2009, 11:49:38 PM
Putting a stack of cards a foot tall through the computer only to get 'error' at the other end. No indication what caused the error either.
When i got an error message, i always got a line number to indicate where the processing had failed. Also, the cards would be returned with the card containing the errant code arranged with its corner tab reversed for easy location so i could check for typo as well as coding errors.
I new much more abut what i was coding that, and i new my programs inside out. Thinks were simpler then, and i'm sure they could be a lot simpler now...
And another thing.......
I forgot to mention how annoyed I am when Mac users state that Apple were responsible for the modern graphical user interface (pointer, mouse, icons, drag and drop etc).
Wrong! It was invented by Rank Xerox at their Palo Alto Research Centre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC
Apple simply wrote an implementation of it for their computers.
When they tried to take Microsoft to court over the 'look and feel' thing, make no mistake about it, this was a large corporate trying to stifle competition by using litigation. If they'd got their way, they'd have made sure that no-one else could build a WYSIWYG interface or the software to go with it without their control. That would have meant no Photoshop for you lot!
Quote from: chris@seary.com on November 09, 2009, 01:54:50 PM
And another thing.......
I forgot to mention how annoyed I am when Mac users state that Apple were responsible for the modern graphical user interface (pointer, mouse, icons, drag and drop etc).
Wrong! It was invented by Rank Xerox at their Palo Alto Research Centre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC
You don't go far enough Chris. You foget to mention that Intel processors were developed at Alto by Xerox as were Motorola, as was the Mouse, the Floppy Drive, the Hard Drive, Ethernet - come to think of, just about every part of a modern compter was developed at Alto Park by Xerox who refused to Patent it - after which several (now prominant) members of the team left and set up their own companies upon which millions were made and the personal computing industry was born. If memory serves the whole story was detailed in a book called "Where Accidental Wizards stay up late and Empires Rise and Fall" - think that's the title. I've got a copy around i like to read every now and again.
It will also tell you that the first 'e-mail' was actually a bulletin board communication sent from the US to a place in Brighton asking some one to take the forgotten tooth brush over to the states when the recipient travelled the following day and brought about RFQ's over whether the message was an abuse of the BB ssytem!
It should be remembered though that Mac did bring the Spreadsheet to the world - and when some one tried to release a WYSWIG Word Processor for the Commodore Amiga, Microsoft had the audacity to threaten them with law suits for infringement of copyright and intellectual theft. Wordsworth i think the program was. It was never going to be ported to the PC as the Amiga, like Macs, runs a flavour of Unix, as opposed to the MS version of Windows built on D.R. DOS (yes that's right- Microsoft never actually created an OS in their lives - they went and bought one and put their brand name on it).
I have a Mac. I've recently converted over from MS based OS. It's nothing to be smug about. It's a practical decision based on the fact that i was fed up sitting around waiting for my PC to open Photoshop or Lightroom and then wait a bit further for it to open a picture. Did i mention that was after i'd cooked a three course meal waiting for it to switch on and log in?
Yes, i could put those awful letters after my name MCP, MCSE etc- so i think we can say i know my way around an MS Windows based PC and a network. I'm just fed up of the whole sorry Microsoft mess.
It's a shame really because Bill Gates has done some marvelous things in bringing standards to the PC industry - it's just a shame he undone it all with such an incompetent set of operating systems and software - whilst at the same time forcing the world to adopt the worst coding practices i have ever seen.
Smugness over Mac Security? If Bill Gates had done his job properly security would not even be up for discussion!
Go and have a read of your history books before you start throwing stones in the Windows v Mac green house - because you will find 'that' green house is located in a much bigger greenhouse with even bigger stones waiting to be thrown at it.
"Smug Mac Owners' are the same people who get smug over owning the latest touch screen mobile phone, Mini Cooper or Smart Car, or because they own the latest Nikon or Canon over a Sony or Pentax.
Responsible Mac owners see it as a tool that does a job how they want to do it just as they choose Canon or Nikon, Olympus, Sony or Pentax, Photoshop, Paintshop Pro or Gimp.
Me wonders if thou doth protest a little too much?
Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 02:50:00 PM
It should be remembered though that Mac did bring the Spreadsheet to the world - and when some one tried to release a WYSWIG Word Processor for the Commodore Amiga, Microsoft had the audacity to threaten them with
No, Mac didn't create it or bring it, but the first spreadsheet (Visicalc) was written for an Apple ][. So, it did first appear on an apple computer, but it was not supplied nor written by Apple, it was written by Software Arts. Amusingly, the first Excel was provided for the original Macintoshes (those annoying little machines that would crash quite happily when the save hot-keys were pressed).
QuoteGo and have a read of your history books before you start throwing stones in the Windows v Mac green house - because you will find 'that' green house is located in a much bigger greenhouse with even bigger stones waiting to be thrown at it.
Time to review your own history lessons vis-a-visicalc. ;) :P
Isn't it time people realised that these things are tools, not lifestyles, or in the case of some of the more pig headed: lifestiles?
I have to admit, I was amused by the recent Iphone worm.
Turning the thread back to security issues, I was reviewing the latest @Risk newsletters. The vase majority of the security vulnerabilities are from 3rd party software, not the OS itself. So, if you use an OS securely, then you won't find much difference between them. Really, you won't. If you always use a root/administrator account for day to day activities and click on everything in a web site, then you reap what you sow - unless you're in the fashion industry and in a moment of exasperation you rip what you sew.
H.
Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 02:50:00 PM
Quote from: chris@seary.com on November 09, 2009, 01:54:50 PM
And another thing.......
I forgot to mention how annoyed I am when Mac users state that Apple were responsible for the modern graphical user interface (pointer, mouse, icons, drag and drop etc).
Wrong! It was invented by Rank Xerox at their Palo Alto Research Centre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC
I have a Mac. I've recently converted over from MS based OS. It's nothing to be smug about. It's a practical decision based on the fact that i was fed up sitting around waiting for my PC to open Photoshop or Lightroom and then wait a bit further for it to open a picture. Did i mention that was after I'd cooked a three course meal waiting for it to switch on and log in?
I really must make the time one day to visit a Mac retailer, if for no other reason than to see what all these claims and counter claims are all about. :-* Knowing next to nothing about the internal workings of either system, let alone who initially owned what, I won't even bother taking sides. I would like to ask the question though - what part (in any system) does the use of matching and quality components play a role? I only ask because my system (Windows XP3 - Desktop and Laptops) don't appear to suffer from these slow responses. Both Photoshop and Lightroom run along at breakneck speed, images render almost at an instant and I've never suffered a single crash or things not behaving as they should.
That said, I'm not in the habit of downloading/installing numerous amounts of freeware and the like, regularly defrag the machines and clean out temp INTERNET files etc. In fact, the only application that takes more than a second or two to open up is iTunes and............well need I say more? :legit:
You question regarding components as actually a very good one indeed - and generally highlights the difference in performance between a Mac and a Windows based PC.
A windows based PC can come in a million different configurations (doubltess some one will come along and say quite a lot more)based firstly on the motherboard and chipset used - which have to be designed to work on a particular processor, which could be Intel, AMD, Motorola etc. I would imagine i have produced thousands of variations there alone. Now let's add in some RAM of varying amounts and types, a graphics chipset and memory which come in the form of a dedicated plug in graphics card with dedicated graphics processor (often more perful than your system processor) and graphics memory or they could be of the 'onboard or shared' variety then your system processor and RAM are being used to supply this processing need. Next we come to a sound card or chipset (usually 'onboard' nowadays), and a hard drive wih a capacity, read/ write speeds and data transfer capacity that varies from hard drive to hard drive.
Finally, this all requires a decent bus (the data cables and all those little circuits you see printed on a motherboard) to pass the data from the hard drive to he processor to be shipped out to the graphics system, processed and then passed all the way back to the hard drive for storage, printer for printing or out to the ethernet system for e-mailing or uploading to a web site.
Have a look at http://www.scan.co.uk and see how many multilples of hardware are available for making up a computer - it's mind blowing.
Get it right - and you have just built the PC equivelant of a bullet train. Get it wrong and you've just built Stephensons 'Rocket'.
Now with a Mac - Apple have total control over the OS and the hardware. The variations are all built around 3 or 4 core systems (iMac, Macbook and PowerMac) with a variation in RAM size but not type, hard drive size but not type and processor size but not type. In essence- they have developed a computer that is about as optimised as a mass produced personal computer can be. Then we add in a monitor - and again what you see on the screen on a Windows based PC has a multitude of factors affecting 'the aesthetic apperance' of your image where as the Apple as a single type of screen in differing sizes.
Because Apple OS is, as stated, a simple Unix based OS it runs considerably leaner than an MS based OS that is in fact lots of bits cobbled together undera single front end menu system.
MS Windows is trying to be all things to all people. Mac OS is trying to be one thing to one group of people.
I've tried to keep it as simple as possible but hope this helps explains how the choosing of components that make up a computer and how they interact with the operating system have an enormous impact on the performance and 'speed' with which a computer utilises a program to achieve a processed result to a request from the user - or in discussion terms, how quick it switches on, logs in, opens up Lightroom, imports photos from a cameras memory card, processes them - exports them to Photoshop for additional editing and then saves them to hard drive, prints them out or uploads them to the web.
It is a mine field, a bit like the 'which is the best make of camera' debate. It is ultimately a personal thing and should depend on the same factors that help you choose your camera and kit.
If your computer is doing what you need to in a manner and at a speed that you are happy with - then it is the right computer for you. Any further expense would be a waste of money.
I have a friend who still uses a PC with Windows 98 and Ms Office 97 Professional. He also uses the Intuit Money Management software which is no longer supported let alone produced.
When he asks me if he should upgrade i ask the same question - 'what is it you need to do that you can't already do?' I'm still waiting for a need.
Long winded but i hope it answer the question.
Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 02:50:00 PM
You don't go far enough Chris. You foget to mention that Intel processors were developed at Alto by Xerox as were Motorola, as was the Mouse, the Floppy Drive, the Hard Drive, Ethernet - come to think of, just about every part of a modern compter was developed at Alto Park by Xerox who refused to Patent it - after which several (now prominant) members of the team left and set up their own companies upon which millions were made and the personal computing industry was born. If memory serves the whole story was detailed in a book called "Where Accidental Wizards stay up late and Empires Rise and Fall" - think that's the title. I've got a copy around i like to read every now and again.
You forgot to mention Windows, which was created by a researcher at Xerox so he didn't need to type in machine code to access the machine. Also, Xerox was owned by the British film company Rank and was called Rank Xerox. They brought Xerox for one million pounds because Xerox had just invented a photocopy machine and with all the patents no one could produce a photocopy device for fifteen years. ;D
yes, i'd forgotten the most obvious product - and the reason why Apples lawsuit over Microsoft's introduction of Windows failed - because Apple didn't invent it!
They were just the first to use it!
Thinking about it - i think Microsoft were actually the last to introduce Windows, given you had GEM, Atari ST, Commodore Amiga, Apple Macintosh, Sinclair QL and a host of other computers that no longer exist.
They all had to open a Shell window to run dos.
MS introduced it as a piece of software that you ran on DOS to make it more user friendly.
Yeah, I should know when to stop, but once I'm on a roll..... No offence meant. Honestly. :)
Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 02:50:00 PM
If Bill Gates had done his job properly security would not even be up for discussion!
Yep, Microsoft started by building down to a price, rather than up to a standard. That's why, when they eventually became the de facto standard, the industry was in such a mess. Not just security, but also things like performance and scalability.
I know that MS tarnished their brand name very much over security, and it will be a while before people accept that they've changed. Fair play to them, they're now serious players in many aspects (WS-Security, Federated identity, Cardspace, secure coding practices). As I said, there's now no distinction between the main operating systems (Unix, Mac (BSD Unix), and Windows) in any of the relevant standards (ISO 27001, CISSP body of knowledge, PCI DSS etc).
When it comes to MAC (that's Mandatory Access Control) and the requirements of people like the military, then you look at something else altogether.
I think that the main reason for sloppy security was that companies avoided it due to cost. It doesn't look exciting to a business executive or a banker making an advance to a small startup software house. Most of the time, you can't see or visualise it, certainly not in a ten minute presentation. It can only be conveyed through assessment of risk and cost, which will send most bombastic managers to sleep.
I worked on a system twelve years ago that handled foreign exchange deals for banks. It handled unbelievably huge amounts of money. The client said they weren't interested in paying for security. Everything ran as admin. Even the users had admin rights on the PC and the system. This was a good three or four years after the Nick Leeson incident, where he brought down Barings with his dodgy practices, and you would have thought that banks would get their act together. However, a lot of legislation passed since then has made senior executives take responsibility or end up in the pokey, so things are more stringent now.
I have to say, I find the most frustrating times are when I work with Unix people. Many times, they just don't seem to 'get it'. They feel that their operating system is secure, so the data must be secure. However, if support staff working from abroad can access an app (which can access the database) with similar privileges to the application service account, then those people abroad can do what they want with the data. Nothing wrong with the technology, just the configuration. I nearly go blue in the face trying to explain this, but am actually a very patient person in a working environment. I often need to be.
Many of the big issues now are within the code for web applications. You can look at the OWASP top ten and see that none of them relate to operating system or programming language:
http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Top_10_2007
Just programmers doing dumb things. I was one of them once, but have now seen the light and am just as annoying as a reformed smoker on the subject. And I don't have an off button, as you can see. :)
Quote from: chris@seary.com on November 09, 2009, 09:13:16 PM
I worked on a system twelve years ago that handled foreign exchange deals for banks. It handled unbelievably huge amounts of money. The client said they weren't interested in paying for security. Everything ran as admin. Even the users had admin rights on the PC and the system. This was a good three or four years after the Nick Leeson incident, where he brought down Barings with his dodgy practices, and you would have thought that banks would get their act together. However, a lot of legislation passed since then has made senior executives take responsibility or end up in the pokey, so things are more stringent now.
I
We used to run a Tandem NoneStop mainframe which was configured with various user levels upto SuperSuper. Talking to an Tandem engineer who told us of one site where they didn't bother setting up the security levels, the system had built-in, and used SuperSuper all the time. Someone ran a command line command, and due to a tiny mistake in the commands typed in, deleted the whole database! :'( :doh:
and there you hit the real nub of the Windows Mac debate - security.
My Commodore Amiga came with worbench disks infected with a virus in 1990!
My wifes second PC got infected by a trojan that wiped that hard drive - despite having what was considered 'adequate' protection at the time.
When offered the chance to trial wireless broad band in Haywards Heath in 2002 - amongst the very first i might add - i had installed to 2 desktops and a laptop before i had configured the fire wall on a Saturday night at about mid night. And can you believe it some one was driving around in car surfing for an open router - and they found one. They deleted all the important files that were necessary to use the computers.
All 3 needed re-building from scratch. Only after the firewall had been fully configured!
That was the last time i ever got caught - despite my many efforts to protect myself. Back up has become a by word in our house.
Security has become as necessary as the on/ off button.
As for security in the work place? I was interested to note by your accreditations that security is taken a bit more seriously than when i was working in I.T. Support. I can well remember running round an office with over 100 staff physically pulling out plugs as it was the quickest to stop a virus spread that had beaten the hopeless protection we had. Too many jokes, video clips and Powerpoint presentations laced with humour. And then the Memory stick!
Now thankfully things are a bit tighter. And the same will happen with Macs - but many harsh lessons will have to be learned first before people sit up and take notice.
Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
My Commodore Amiga came with worbench disks infected with a virus in 1990!
I remember in the 1980's, all the computer disks given away with the mags were security checked for viruses guaranteed, but they still contained viruses. The mags standard answer was, it's our supplier and we will take it up with them. :o
I'm not so sure that Macs will be hit the same way as Windows.
Firstly, with the sheer number of Windows desktops around, it's a much more profitable target for people who write viruses.
Secondly, how much corporate data is on a Mac? The big corporates all use Windows desktops. If you work for a bank, you're almost certainly using Windows XP. So it's the best way into the whole network.
A bank client of mine found that many of its staff, when staying in hotels in Hong Kong, couldn't access broadband in the hotel room. They were prompted to download software to access via broadband, and the PC was locked down so it couldn't be installed.
Now this is staying in China, right? And you don't need to install any software to pick up an IP address to access the internet, right?
Management response was a directive to alter the configuration of the laptop to allow download of said software. We found a reasonably secure way of doing this using a virtual secure desktop, but basically some people need their brains dusted, yes?
I saw a presentation recently on how viruses are written in a certain country where malicious software is not illegal. So if it ain't illegal, it becomes an industry, right? There are virus writing companies with business analysts, requirements analysts, test teams etc. You can get SDK toolkits with little pop-up dialogs asking: 'Do you wish to write a worm, trojan or virus' (with little check boxes for each choice).
These toolkits apparently have 24 hour, 7 day a week helpdesk support.
All the beta versions of operating systems are tested for 'compatibility' and to keep up with the game by these companies.
Still, this stuff keeps me in business, so I reckon it's appropriate as an IT Security professional to embrace the whole thing and make it pay the rent. :)
Quote from: chris@seary.com on November 09, 2009, 10:46:53 PM
but basically some people need their brains dusted, yes?
All the beta versions of operating systems are tested for 'compatibility' and to keep up with the game by these companies.
Still, this stuff keeps me in business, so I reckon it's appropriate as an IT Security professional to embrace the whole thing and make it pay the rent. :)
And now finally you hit the important points...
People need their brains dusted - that explains whey joke of the day has had several entries detailing why some people calling for I.T Support need their brains dusted.
Drivers will tell of passengers who operate the Emergency Pass Com equipment (you know, the one to say you're life is in danger etc) just to ask the driver : are we running on time, can you slow down because i'm struggling with my make up, what time will we arrive at a certain place, am i in coach 4 or 5... and so on
In this extremely dumbed down world of ours people are trained to do one, and only one job and hand over the rest of their lives to all the other experts. Do you know i've heard some one say that if a train hits you at 20mph it won't kill you because that's what the add says... It is the likes of you, and to a lesser extent, me and the others on web forums like this that have to some how educate people 'why' they need to do stuff.
My step daught is a DJ - not bad by all accounts. She has just embraced the Mac and become a devout convert - until she wanted me to configure all of her pirate file sharing sites etc and i said no.
eMule, Limewire and the likes. I've never even seen them in action. I refuse to have them in the house.
She sulked and asked her mum to speak to me. Not happening - like taking recreational drugs - not in my house and where i have a say over stopping it.
What people do in their houses is up to them - but not in mine.
Strangely enough - she has now signed up for all the pay per download sites and is amazed at how much greater the choice of music is she gets and the success and quality of the downloads are much improved.
She's extremely impressed with herself for discovering all this and maybe i could learn something from her.
I don't care how they learn the lesson, i don't care if they take credit for it. Another lesson learned is less stress for me in the future!
As for these companies testing software and O/S's, it has been said for as long as i've been buying floppy disks, the companies responsible for providing anti virus subscribe to these modern day hackers t help generate and even boost income. I'm not putting any names to that claim, but it was certainly common talk when i was on level 1 and 2 support desk - to the point that when an alert made the news about a new indestructable virus threat some one would say 'i wonder who sponsored this one...' substitute the dots for any of the major anti virus suppliers!
As for paying your rent, i would hope it's buying you a house - cos it's not going away and at some point your children will 'demand that you join the Mac charge 'cos they're so cool 8) 8) 8)'
I look forward to the 'why windows is so incompetent thread' ;D Then i'll know that security has reached new levels!
Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 05:35:16 PM
Get it right - and you have just built the PC equivelant of a bullet train. Get it wrong and you've just built Stephensons 'Rocket'.
Long winded but i hope it answer the question.
And then the Memory stick!
Long winded perhaps but also very comprehensive - many thanks for that. To an extent your comments justify some of my reasons in having the PC build by a specialist company as they would appear to have
got it right as you say. :tup:
Yes, I get your point regarding memory sticks and perhaps you could answer me this question. Considering that a lot of the newer generation televisions and DVD recorder/players are fitted with a USB socket for inserting a memory stick (mine certainly have) are these sets also vulnerable to infection?
Even your washing machine is vulnerable to a virus attack!
I think Chris may put me right here if i've got it wrong - this really is his field of expertise - but basically anything that has a nice pretty graphical menu, or can be accessed via blue tooth and other wireless connections or has a usb connection is prone to a virus.
But here is the rub of it. What is to be gained by taking down your TV, or Washing Machine or Car?
People who write these viruses, trojans etc do so for an end purpose - line their pockets with as much money as Chris is getting if not substantially more. They do so to get noticed and offered a job with the security companies and so improve the quality of their lives. Very few viruses are written in what is referred to as 'the western world'. I'm not saying that they can't do it - it's just that the gains for doing it no longer outweigh the cost of being caught doing it.
Prior to 9/11 Gary Mckinnlon would have been offered a job in the states by one of the large security companies like Macafee or Norton. Since 9/11 he is now a terrorist threat. He's not a threat. He's some kid in an adults body who's watched 'Wargames' one to many times and doesn't understand that times have moved on.
Go to bed and sleep easy, plug your memory stick into your TV and show of your pictures etc. You are not being targeted by any one, and would have to be unlucky to be caught out by a virus. If you've gone to enough effort to get your computer custom built to your requirements, i think you've taken enough interest to make all of your electronic stuff secure.
'Join us again for another tale from "The Twilight Zone" :)'
Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
and there you hit the real nub of the Windows Mac debate - security.
...
Now thankfully things are a bit tighter. And the same will happen with Macs - but many harsh lessons will have to be learned first before people sit up and take notice.
Yes, so we then agree that this particular argument, that security is a reason to buy a Mac over a Windows box, is no longer tenable. There is little difference in the security available for the two platforms and both manufacturers are looking at the issues seriously. The primary security flaws are the way people use the machines and the 3rd party applications.
The remaining arguments between the two platforms are: the look and feel, the average cost, performance, and the flexibility of the platform.
Look and feel: this is entirely subjective and down to ergonomics and what feels right for the individual. Arguing this is tantamount to arguing that bananas are better than apples - some like one, some prefer the other. There is also a stylistic argument - some people like Levi's, some like Armani. Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead in Armani - to me it screams superficiality.
Average cost: The macs are expensive, but has been touted, the matching windows platform in terms of performance is about the same cost (although there is more commercial competition keeping the prices suppressed, but not by much). However, the entry level cost for a windows box is much less (and less so for a Linux box as you only need pay for the hardware). Ignoring the Linux box (for now), the windows box on average is much cheaper - a very big consideration for many purchasing computers (but you get what you pay for) and if it meets your needs, then why pay more? c.f.
Quote from: picsforWhen he asks me if he should upgrade i ask the same question - 'what is it you need to do that you can't already do?' I'm still waiting for a need.
Performance: see Average cost, most windows based PCs are lower spec'd because the buyer didn't want to pay more. If you spend the same money for a windows pc that you would for a mac, then you'd have a comparable system. Most performance issues come from how good the compiler is at optimising the code. The Monte-Carlo physics simulation codes I write run faster when compiled with Visual C++ than Gcc. With a dual boot test on the same machine with Linux and windows XP, the code runs faster when I run it under windows. But if I compile it with the Portland Group's compilers, there's a massive improvement in the Linux version. Performance is a hardware and compiler issue. But mostly compiler.
Flexibility: The Mac's aren't flexible: the options for tailoring the system are limited to what Apple deems that you will need. Apple loves running its vertical market, it's extremely profitable. Do you ever wonder why you see these amusing blue screens of death photos from petrol pumps, airport flight information terminals, etc? It's because the windows system is flexible enough to allow for that development/integration/implementation, and I mean this in terms of hardware flexibility - not software. Although I recently saw a failed boot screen from a ticket machine/stamp machine at the supermarket that was running Linux. You'll never see a mac system used in a petrol pump - it's not cost effective, nor can you probably winkle in the necessary device drivers for some of the more exotic peripherals required.
So. As previously stated: buy what is best for your pocket book and what meets your needs. If it's a glossy pretty white box that screams "superficial", fine, if it's a lump of grey tedium that screams "cheapskate", fine. But don't spout on about how utopian a system it is if it won't meet my technical/cost needs.
H.
As an aside: the reason the security on the original Windows boxes from the '90s/early '00 was low was simple: a small amount of additional security dramatically impacts usability - the balance fell more to the usability side - a naive time. The concept was to provide a platform that was easy to connect to other machines and share data (although NFS is not secure either). I've now had the pleasure of trying to explain to several people why they need a firewall (and the arguments are unchanged for macs or pcs). These are the same people that religiously go around locking every door and window of their house before going next door.
I don't know about locking doors and windows Hugh, I don't even lock the cars on the drive. Although I do sometimes remember to close the windows to stop the cat getting into them.
You're so right about horses for courses. Our 8 year old Dell has just had the last available power supply pack up - although the machine itself still works, we can't power it. A new power supply is just not cost effective. So it's a £300 windows lappie for emails and surfing to replace it. Anything more would be overkill.
Quote from: hevans on November 10, 2009, 08:40:23 AM
As an aside: the reason the security on the original Windows boxes from the '90s/early '00 was low was simple: a small amount of additional security dramatically impacts usability - the balance fell more to the usability side - a naive time.
Yes i'd forgotten about that side of it! We used to have our system locked down so no one could put anything in. Some one brought a CD with a Powerpoint presntation had to come to the Help Desk to get it cleared, uploaded to the network and downloaded to the computer that would be used for the presentation. A Mail Administrator who spent all day checking incoming and outgoing e-mails, espcially those that did not make it through a filter because of all the jokes etc. Oh innocent days...
Quote from: hevans on November 09, 2009, 03:29:34 PM
I have to admit, I was amused by the recent Iphone worm.
Yeah that was quite a laugh.
It appears that if you buy hardware from Apple and bugger about with the operating system sufficiently then you can expose it to a hack attack.
Who knew?
[In case you missed it in some of the more hysterical reporting it's only Jailbroken iPhones that are vulnerable. Basically you have to deliberately change Apple's OS and leave the root password at the default to be affected. I wonder if there's a reason Apple don't allow SSH clients in the regular OS?]
Quote from: Jonathan on November 10, 2009, 02:40:26 PM
Quote from: hevans on November 09, 2009, 03:29:34 PM
I have to admit, I was amused by the recent Iphone worm.
It appears that if you buy hardware from Apple and bugger about with the operating system sufficiently then you can expose it to a hack attack.
Thanks, you've outlined the reason I used it as a segue to my following point about basic security. And that's the reason I was amused.
What was a bit more interesting, though, was the estimated fraction of the market that HAD modified the iPhone so as to become potentially susceptible - 10%. Seems there's a reasonable market comprised of idiots.
Could someone explain to me, though, why I would want to ssh into an iphone? I'm guessing that it was the SSH server and not client that was installed. I can see the point of the client..but the server?
H.
Quote from: hevans on November 10, 2009, 02:52:36 PM
Could someone explain to me, though, why I would want to ssh into an iphone?
I'm only guessing (SSH is a bit techie for me) but would it not allow you to effectively use the iPhone as a modem? If you SSH from a laptop to an iPhone then might you be able to get internet access on the laptop via O2's marvelous network?
IIRC first of all doing this via a legitimate route was locked down by O2 then they said you could do it but it would cost more than buying a dongle and another unlimited data plan from them.
I think it's a little harsh to call these people idiots. Rather they are confusing "sticking it to the man" with "doing something stupid that disables the very careful safeguards put in place to protect them". A bit like buying a safety razor, smashing off all the bits of plastic and then complaining when you cut your throat with it :D
Here's an article from someone at Sophos, although it's a year old:
http://www.sophos.com/blogs/sophoslabs/v/post/1156