Hi all,
I'm about to buy a flash I can use outdoors for location shoots, I want to use soft boxes and brolleys but I cant decide between buying the sb-600 800 900. I'll be shooting manual on both flash and camera and just want to know if the sb-600 will do the same job in this situation as the 800 or 900. Cost is a big issue to me at the min, from being able to buy the 600 next week and the 900 in a month or so, is it worth waiting and purchasing the better flashes or can I trot of the the camera shop or surf ebay and buy an sb-600 safe in the knowledge it will do just as good a job shooting through soft boxes n brolly's as the more pricey 800 n 900.
I'm sorry if this is a silly question but I'm a complete simpleton when it comes to this sort of thing. :-\
Rick,
we've all been or still are simpletons so you do not need to put yourself down like that.
The beauty of this site is people come on to ask for help irrespective of how silly it sounds and yet answers still come forth freely!
So, to the question - which flash?
I'm a Canon user and i think they work slightly differently but i think the principal is the same. The SB800/900 will definitely offer benefits over the SB600 - the question is - do you want those benefits?
Usually wireless control over multiple flash units and a more powerful allowing the subject to be further away from the camera!
Now for the Nikon users to come in and tell you what those benefits are because i only know the benefits of the EX580II over the EX430I & II and EX580I & Ex550!
Rick,
As you intend to do more 'creative' exterior shooting you won't be using (I guess, because I never do) any of the fancy or complex flash modes. You'll be using manual on both the camera and the flash(es). So, unless you need stuff like PTTL and high speed strobe flashing you won't need a dedicated gun.
Like you, but from the opposite end as I am a retired old fart, money is a it of an issue. So I use eBay PT-04 radio triggers (those by Godox or Yongnuo are the best in my experience) and non dedicated guns. All the gun needs to do is be manually adjustable. I've got a couple of old Pentax and Cobra guns with limited control, so I usually just move them further away. But Yongnuo do a variable output gun of reasonable power that many over on the strobist group at flickr recommend:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300313700590&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
One of these is next on my equipment list. They are available from various sellers there. Stick a couple on stands with umbrellas and you have a portable studio.
If you want more sophisticated wireless transmitter with a longer range and that can also be used as a camera remote then Yongnuo also do a 2.4ghz one, RF-602 (that is the Pentax/Canon reference, but I suspect the Nikon is the same number).
Good hunting.
PS, for a dedicated flash I use a Metz 58AF-1 - the two flash heads make it an excellent choice for close work that looks almost like bare bulb. And it was £100 cheaper than the Pentax gun with the same guide number.
Rick, like Picsfor, I am also a canon man - and I initially bought the bottom end flash gun (420EX) and fairly quickly regretted it and now have bought the 580EXII.
Jonathan can no doubt tell you more of the advantages of the SB900 - but in brief the main performance differences seem to be as follows:
SB600:
Guide number 30
Auto zoom range 24-85mm
SB900
Guide number 48
Auto zoom range 17-200mm
Faster recycle time
3 Different flash patterns
But the SB900 is about £100 more.
I would go for the one that I could afford - which if it means waiting a month, then so be it!
If your going to be using soft boxes, brollies etc. (And I recomend that you do.) bear in mind that they will rob you of some light output, so I would go for the highest power/guide no. that you can as you can never have too much power!
I'm a fully paid up Nikon snob and am theirfore bound by contract to recomend the SB900. However the new Nissin gun is getting very favourable reviews, has a guide no. of 60 compared to the SB900's 48 and has fully CLS compatable. Allso it's about £130.00 cheaper.
All the best Graham.
See here, http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-nissin-di866-professional-flashgun-nikon-fit/p1031358
I doubt if you could get an SB800 unless it's secondhand. I have a SB600 and it serves me well, but if you want to control more than one flash then it hasn't got commander mode which the SB800/SB900 have. Some Nikon cameras have inbuilt flash which can be used in commander mode but you need to check your manual. If you are going to use flash a lot then the SB900 is you best bet, and it's also the best flash gun on the market at present. ;D
Oooo that Nissin looks good. Review of it here - http://dpanswers.com/content/rev_nissin_di866.php
If you can cope with the flawed FP mode (and they may fix that), a few other quirks and an interface made by Fisher Price then it looks a very good bet. Build quality is less good than Nikon but most people don't use their flashguns hard ;)
My current "stable" contains 1 X SB900, 2 X SB800 and 1 X SB600. I've also managed to break an SB800 and SB600 in the past so I have a little familiarity with these guns.
Forget the SB800 - if you can find one it will cost more than an SB900.
SB900
Cons
VERY big. Like huge. Almost bigger than big itself.
Doesn't fit lots of flash shoes (the hotshoe is very slightly thicker than that on an SB800 - won't fit many 3rd party shoes or even the Nikon SB800 stand - they supply a different foot for the 900). FWIW the 600 and 800 are also fractionally different. Amazingly this is one of my biggest gripes with this gun. I can't use it with some modifiers I have.
Thermal shutdown is ridiculous. The sensor is on the top so using it in hot sunshine can causes it to shut down after a dozen full power blasts. It does this almost without warning and stays off for a while. You can disable the sensor - but there's no option to make it less conservative. It's on and twitchy or off (and you really can blow the tube up if you turn it off).
Mine keeps changing channel "all by itself". Obviously I'm knocking the button by accident but 800/600 don't do that.
SB600
Cons
No sync socket - you can add one with a third party shoe but I never trust those
Completely different control system from both the 800 and 900. 800 and 600 are slightly tricky, 900 is very good. Using a mixed bag of flash guns is awkward. Cheers Nikon. It's like using Canon cameras from 5 years ago. Every model they changed everything for no good reason.
Won't rotate head past 90 degrees to the right. It goes 180 to the left and 90 to the right. This will annoy you more than you can ever imagine.
No built in bounce card. Meh - bit of velcro and a bit of card and you're done.
No SU-4 mode. AFAIK "just because" - it has all the parts. That would save me a bunch of my frustrations with this gun.
IMHO apart from the control interface, the SB800 is the best flash gun Nikon have ever made. There's a reason they now cost more than the 900s.
If I was you and planned to use it off camera in manual all the time then I'd probably look very hard at the Nissin, then the 900, then the 600. But depending on the triggers you ue you may find the SB600 very good indeed.
BTW I power of all of them seems to be fine. Even though Nissin appear to be lying and using it for hype.
Listen to the siren voices of the brand slaves if you want, but the Metz has a guide number of 58 (10 more than then SB900) and TWO flash heads that both fire in certain modes.
The 48 is the single headed one with the same guide number as the SB900 and is less than half the price.
But hey, why not buy 10 Yongnuo 460's instead? :D
Hi Rick,
Interesting feedback, poor you lol... I'm another canon user, but looks very much like the range of guns availabe are similar and give similar choice decisions.
I bought the 430 for mine, due to being affordable for me at the time (600 equivelant) I was wishing I had bought the more expensive 580 till I got a camera that can wirelessly control the 430, now I am very happy with the smaller gun and when I can will buy another 430, because, 2 guns give you more options than 1 slightly more powerfull one.
So if you plan to get triggers or your camera can control the 600 off the shoe, I suggest you get the 600, spend the rest of your cash on the brolly/box/stand/triggers and soon enough you will want another 600, because as I said, 2 guns are better than 1 for great lighting setups, especially people shots :)
If money was not an issue or my photography paid for my kit I would get 580's of course.
Nissin & metz do have a good reputation, but personelly I prefer to stick to canon stuff for my kit now.
:beer:
Quote from: Jonathan on January 17, 2010, 11:23:47 AM
Forget the SB800 - if you can find one it will cost more than an SB900.
Oh good....I've got three! :D
But their not for sale. ;D
Graham.
Thanks for all the replies guys.. It's given me some options i'd not even considered :)
Awesome site... LOVIN IT!!! :tup:
I've found an sb-800 for £250, they do seem to be a rare beast..lol is this an ok price??
Not a bad price ;) Is that new? Some people don't know that flashguns wear out.....
BTW for this wedding (http://myweddingstory.co.uk/2010/01/louise-and-anthony-get-married-at-little-silver/) I left the big lights in the car and used only speedlights. Most of the flash pics use a single SB800 off camera (or on camera....). High key one uses 2 X SB800 + 1 X SB900 and a Hasselblad.....
Quote from: Rick Wilks on January 18, 2010, 05:10:58 PM
I've found an sb-800 for £250, they do seem to be a rare beast..lol is this an ok price??
I've just dug out some receipts.
1st SB800 May '05 £299.00
2nd ,, Jan '08 £287.90
3rd ,, Oct '08 £240.88
The third one was just when Nikon anounced that they were discontinuing it and they were being snapped up right , left and center.
So if it's new (as all mine were.) that sound an ok price.
Graham. :)
Hey guys, Thanks for the reply, There is one for £299 that's new but the one at £250 is used. The guys says its less than a year old but doesn't say how hard a life it's had. Is there anyway of telling how many flashes it's had like our camera's actuation's count?? if so how many is bad? if not is there any other telling factors when looking at one? and can they be re-furbed?
I normally don't mind buying used stuff but if this is bad when it comes to flashes I'll have to shell out for a new one :-\
If you are going to use manual settings why go to the expense of a dedicated flashgun. A high power gun of any make used with a cheap remote firing system will do the same job for less than half the money. I have been away for a few days and have not had time to research a complete solution but you could make your money go a lot further without dedication...
Quote from: CannOffice on January 19, 2010, 12:08:52 AM
If you are going to use manual settings why go to the expense of a dedicated flashgun. A high power gun of any make used with a cheap remote firing system will do the same job for less than half the money. I have been away for a few days and have not had time to research a complete solution but you could make your money go a lot further without dedication...
My point exactly :tup:
That's a very good point Malcolm and Howard make, the key thing being If you are only going to use manual settings.
I don't think there's a way of counting the number of flashes a unit has had. The only thing would to treat like a used car and look for physical wear and tear.
The fact that the new one is the same price that I paid 5 years ago, and has been discontinued for nearly 2 tells you something, (Not sure what! ;D)
Is there a guarantee? If not I'd save anoter £50.00 and get the new one.
Oh the agony of choice! Graham. :-\
If the flash looks like the one on the left then it's probably best avoided :)
(http://homepage.mac.com/jonathan_ryan/filechute/flashgun_comp.jpg)
Actually the SB900 pretty much looks like that now.....
Quote from: CannOffice on January 19, 2010, 12:08:52 AM
If you are going to use manual settings why go to the expense of a dedicated flashgun. A high power gun of any make used with a cheap remote firing system will do the same job for less than half the money. I have been away for a few days and have not had time to research a complete solution but you could make your money go a lot further without dedication...
The reason I was going for the dedicated flash guns was due to me being very new to photography and I'm learning more and more every week, I don't want to be stuck down the line needing a setting on my flash that I haven't got. I'd rather have it and not need it, Than need it and not have it. :doh:
Fair enough, but that wasn't what you said at the outset and it doesn't mean you have to be a label mabel . . . :legit:
Quote from: Tringle WP on January 19, 2010, 02:01:32 PM
Fair enough, but that wasn't what you said at the outset and it doesn't mean you have to be a label mabel . . . :legit:
In the outset I'd asked about the sb-6 8 and 900, I've been told by a friend that Nikon is the best flash system and I happy that the price difference between the Nikon and cheaper flash guns is not a massive amount. I'm just asking for some advice but it feels like I'm being persecuted because i like Nikon gear.
I've not sure if you've seen this website before Rick, but it's got some good avise http://strobist.blogspot.com/2006/03/lighting-101.html
Quote from: Rick Wilks on January 19, 2010, 02:49:43 PM
it feels like I'm being persecuted because i like Nikon gear.
You are not being persecuted - you just need to understand that some work in different ways.
Brand loyalty is probably the most contentious issue in photography.
You are a Nikon user and you have asked about Nikon gear. This thread has clearly expanded beyond the initial question because you got answers to questions you did not need to ask - which in turn has lead to more questions.
You are dealing with people from different cultures, working methods and priorities which affects the language used.
Some times the language can appear 'sharp' - that was one of the complaints on DCM in its latter days. On here, you will find that no offense is is intended and any possible misunderstandings normally bring forth apologies.
I have had to issue apologies on a few occasions. It is the clearest sign of the weakness of text only forum like this.
Do not take it personally, because be assured it was not meant to come across as 'persecution'.
Don`t take it too hard Rick - lots of different views on flash come out. I missed your post but I too followed the Nikon route and get grief from local Flickr Leeds people telling me to use the various 3rd party triggers / flashes. Thing is Nikons CLS system is so good for firing I think it`s worth getting the Nikon flashes unless you plan on shooting in a field 30 metres away ;)
I`ve got 2x SB600s and an SB800. My mistake was getting carried away with good prices and figuring 2 was better than 1 dearer one. It was for work on stands with umbrellas etc no doubt but when using just one on camera or held off camera the SB600 just lacks a bit of oomph and the SB800 is so good. I got my SB800 off a contact who had little used it for £180 a few months back so knew its history and came as new so a no brainer really. Despite the warnings about 2nd hand flash guns just see what the Nikons sell for if you don`t end up using them so much. If you go third party the Yongnou that Tringle recommends gets the thumbs up from most of the Leeds Flickr people I know for ultra - reliability - they are still occasionally jealous of my TTL control etc through CLS and the Nikon flashes though ( rarely admitted ;) )
So sorry guys. Your rite!! I'm finding brand loyalty is a big issue in photography. I can understand it though, In the past when I've bought 3rd party kit (in other hobbies) finding parts and accessories has been a nightmare.
Sorry again to come across like I did, I really have learned allot in the short time on this site and hope to learn allot more.
Thanks again for the help and I do listen to all of it.
Take care all!! :tup:
Sorry Rick, I pretty much latched on to the "I'm about to buy a flash I can use outdoors for location shoots" and sort of ignored the rest.
Sure if you're minted like jinky ::) then you can buy the branded stuff and not break a sweat. :tup:
My Pentaxes have wireless TTL too, works just fine with the Metz, but I've only ever used it once and then immediately went back to manually adjusting stuff because TTL just flattens everything (although I've only got the one TTL flash gun, so jinky will be back in mo to explain that if I invest another £400 in extra strobes I'll soon see why it's sooo good :legit:).
I'm sure whatever you settle upon you'll be having hours of fun. And then spending loads more on extras that somehow got overlooked at the time of initial purchase.
As an aside, and I don't know if this it true of the Nikon system, but wireless on my system doesn't mean radio, it means 'optical', the commands being sent by either the camera's pop up flash or a master flash mounted either on the hotshoe or connected to it by a TTL cable.
I find the radio triggers are 100% reliable (so far).
If you're going to use flash off camera, and want to be creative, then two or more flashes would be better than the one, wouldn't it?
How about 2 x SB600?
What about three or four Vivitar 285s and cheap chinese triggers?
I have both SB600 and SB800, and love them both - SB900 is really advanced and can do lots more, SB600 is small enough to carry around. I can use both off camera with my D90, and can use SB900 on camera to trigger the SB600 with my D60.
It would be good to know which camera you have, then we'd be able to tell you what you would need in order to trigger the flash off camera.
Hey Chris, I'm using a Nikon D300. I'm happy to use one at the min, I'm a big fan of Zack Arias and his Onelight DVD's. He gets some amazing effects just using one off camera flash. I had a cheap vivitar but it didn't fire on my D300.
As an aside to this I realise that the op is talking about outdoor flash but if he or anyone wants some free (well nearly you have to pay for post and packing) flash filters (all they have to do is register) at either of these site and they will send you the swatch pack
http://www.lxstore.com/product_catalog.php?c=64
http://www.lxstore.com/product_catalog.php?c=44
http://www.stage-electrics.co.uk/Category.aspx?id=21108 (scroll down for the free ones)
I ordered some the other day, so you can wait and I'll give the lowdown when I try them on my sb600 for size
Irv
As a kind of off the wall suggestion.....I just bought yet another flash gun :)
I got a Metz 45 CL-4. This is a pro spec heavy duty hammerhead. Largely designed for press and wedding photographers. They are reckoned to be more or less indestructible. No reason why you can't mount it on a stand and use it off camera. Huge GN, twin flash tubes (top and fill) and swivelling rotating head.
The bad news is the price - they are about £350. The interesting news is that they changed the spec a little while ago so there is a "digital" and "non digital" version. The non digital won't work in TTL with a digital camera. But it will work beautifully in automatic and of course manual. Mine was £70 ;)