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Why I hate Apple and Windows

Started by hevans, September 28, 2009, 01:55:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

picsfor

Quote from: chris@seary.com on November 09, 2009, 01:54:50 PM
And another thing.......
I forgot to mention how annoyed I am when Mac users state that Apple were responsible for the modern graphical user interface (pointer, mouse, icons, drag and drop etc).
Wrong! It was invented by Rank Xerox at their Palo Alto Research Centre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC

You don't go far enough Chris. You foget to mention that Intel processors were developed at Alto by Xerox as were Motorola, as was the Mouse, the Floppy Drive, the Hard Drive, Ethernet - come to think of, just about every part of a modern compter was developed at Alto Park by Xerox who refused to Patent it - after which several (now prominant) members of the team left and set up their own companies upon which millions were made and the personal computing industry was born. If memory serves the whole story was detailed in a book called "Where Accidental Wizards stay up late and Empires Rise and Fall" - think that's the title. I've got a copy around i like to read every now and again.

It will also tell you that the first 'e-mail' was actually a bulletin board communication sent from the US to a place in Brighton asking some one to take the forgotten tooth brush over to the states when the recipient travelled the following day and brought about RFQ's over whether the message was an abuse of the BB ssytem!

It should be remembered though that Mac did bring the Spreadsheet to the world - and when some one tried to release a WYSWIG Word Processor for the Commodore Amiga, Microsoft had the audacity to threaten them with law suits for infringement of copyright and intellectual theft. Wordsworth i think the program was. It was never going to be ported to the PC as the Amiga, like Macs, runs a flavour of Unix, as opposed to the MS version of Windows built on D.R. DOS (yes that's right- Microsoft never actually created an OS in their lives - they went and bought one and put their brand name on it).

I have a Mac. I've recently converted over from MS based OS. It's nothing to be smug about. It's a practical decision based on the fact that i was fed up sitting around waiting for my PC to open Photoshop or Lightroom and then wait a bit further for it to open a picture. Did i mention that was after i'd cooked a three course meal waiting for it to switch on and log in?

Yes, i could put those awful letters after my name MCP, MCSE etc- so i think we can say i know my way around an MS Windows based PC and a network. I'm just fed up of the whole sorry Microsoft mess.

It's a shame really because Bill Gates has done some marvelous things in bringing standards to the PC industry - it's just a shame he undone it all with such an incompetent set of operating systems and software - whilst at the same time forcing the world to adopt the worst coding practices i have ever seen.

Smugness over Mac Security? If Bill Gates had done his job properly security would not even be up for discussion!

Go and have a read of your history books before you start throwing stones in the Windows v Mac green house - because you will find 'that' green house is located in a much bigger greenhouse with even bigger stones waiting to be thrown at it.

"Smug Mac Owners' are the same people who get smug over owning the latest touch screen mobile phone, Mini Cooper or Smart Car, or because they own the latest Nikon or Canon over a Sony or Pentax.

Responsible Mac owners see it as a tool that does a job how they want to do it just as they choose Canon or Nikon, Olympus, Sony or Pentax, Photoshop, Paintshop Pro or Gimp.

Me wonders if thou doth protest a little too much? 


hevans

Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 02:50:00 PM

It should be remembered though that Mac did bring the Spreadsheet to the world - and when some one tried to release a WYSWIG Word Processor for the Commodore Amiga, Microsoft had the audacity to threaten them with

No, Mac didn't create it or bring it, but the first spreadsheet (Visicalc) was written for an Apple ][. So, it did first appear on an apple computer, but it was not supplied nor written by Apple, it was written by Software Arts. Amusingly, the first Excel was provided for the original Macintoshes (those annoying little machines that would crash quite happily when the save hot-keys were pressed).

QuoteGo and have a read of your history books before you start throwing stones in the Windows v Mac green house - because you will find 'that' green house is located in a much bigger greenhouse with even bigger stones waiting to be thrown at it.

Time to review your own history lessons vis-a-visicalc.  ;)  :P

Isn't it time people realised that these things are tools, not lifestyles, or in the case of some of the more pig headed: lifestiles?

I have to admit, I was amused by the recent Iphone worm.

Turning the thread back to security issues, I was reviewing the latest @Risk newsletters. The vase majority of the security vulnerabilities are from 3rd party software, not the OS itself. So, if you use an OS securely, then you won't find much difference between them. Really, you won't. If you always use a root/administrator account for day to day activities and click on everything in a web site, then you reap what you sow - unless you're in the fashion industry and in a moment of exasperation you rip what you sew.

H.

Forseti

Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 02:50:00 PM
Quote from: chris@seary.com on November 09, 2009, 01:54:50 PM
And another thing.......
I forgot to mention how annoyed I am when Mac users state that Apple were responsible for the modern graphical user interface (pointer, mouse, icons, drag and drop etc).
Wrong! It was invented by Rank Xerox at their Palo Alto Research Centre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC




I have a Mac. I've recently converted over from MS based OS. It's nothing to be smug about. It's a practical decision based on the fact that i was fed up sitting around waiting for my PC to open Photoshop or Lightroom and then wait a bit further for it to open a picture. Did i mention that was after I'd cooked a three course meal waiting for it to switch on and log in?




I really must make the time one day to visit a Mac retailer, if for no other reason than to see what all these claims and counter claims are all about.  :-* Knowing next to nothing about the internal workings of either system, let alone who initially owned what, I won't even bother taking sides. I would like to ask the question though - what part (in any system) does the use of matching and quality components play a role? I only ask because my system (Windows XP3 - Desktop and Laptops) don't appear to suffer from these slow responses. Both Photoshop and Lightroom run along at breakneck speed, images render almost at an instant and I've never suffered a single crash or things not behaving as they should.

That said, I'm not in the habit of downloading/installing numerous amounts of freeware and the like, regularly defrag the machines and clean out temp INTERNET files etc. In fact, the only application that takes more than a second or two to open up is iTunes and............well need I say more?  :legit:
Canon 7D,  Canon SX1 IS, EF100 f/2.8 USM Macro, EF70-200 f/4 L IS USM, EF17-40 f/4 L USM, Sigma 50mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM, Canon Speedlite 580EX MkII

"Everyone can take a great picture with digital, the knack is to take two" - David Bailey

picsfor

You question regarding components as actually a very good one indeed - and generally highlights the difference in performance between a Mac and a Windows based PC.

A windows based PC can come in a million different configurations (doubltess some one will come along and say quite a lot more)based firstly on the motherboard and chipset used - which have to be designed to work on a particular processor, which could be Intel, AMD, Motorola etc. I would imagine i have produced thousands of variations there alone. Now let's add in some RAM of varying amounts and types, a graphics chipset and memory which come in the form of a dedicated plug in graphics card with dedicated graphics processor (often more perful than your system processor) and graphics memory or they could be of the 'onboard or shared' variety then your system processor and RAM are being used to supply this processing need. Next we come to a sound card or chipset (usually 'onboard' nowadays), and a hard drive wih a capacity, read/ write speeds and data transfer capacity that varies from hard drive to hard drive. 

Finally, this all requires a decent bus (the data cables and all those little circuits you see printed on a motherboard) to pass the data from the hard drive to he processor to be shipped out to the graphics system, processed and then passed all the way back to the hard drive for storage, printer for printing or out to the ethernet system for e-mailing or uploading to a web site.

Have a look at http://www.scan.co.uk and see how many multilples of hardware are available for making up a computer - it's mind blowing.

Get it right - and you have just built the PC equivelant of a bullet train. Get it wrong and you've just built Stephensons 'Rocket'.

Now with a Mac - Apple have total control over the OS and the hardware. The variations are all built around 3 or 4 core systems (iMac, Macbook and PowerMac) with a variation in RAM size but not type, hard drive size but not type and processor size but not type. In essence- they have developed a computer that is about as optimised as a mass produced personal computer can be. Then we add in a monitor - and again what you see on the screen on a Windows based PC has a multitude of factors affecting 'the aesthetic apperance' of your image where as the Apple as a single type of screen in differing sizes.

Because Apple OS is, as stated, a simple Unix based OS it runs considerably leaner than an MS based OS that is in fact lots of bits cobbled together undera single front end menu system.
MS Windows is trying to be all things to all people. Mac OS is trying to be one thing to one group of people.

I've tried to keep it as simple as possible but hope this helps explains how the choosing of components that make up a computer and how they interact with the operating system have an enormous impact on the performance and 'speed' with which a computer utilises a program to achieve a processed result to a request from the user - or in discussion terms, how quick it switches on, logs in, opens up Lightroom, imports photos from a cameras memory card, processes them - exports them to Photoshop for additional editing and then saves them to hard drive, prints them out or uploads them to the web.

It is a mine field, a bit like the 'which is the best make of camera' debate. It is ultimately a personal thing and should depend on the same factors that help you choose your camera and kit.
If your computer is doing what you need to in a manner and at a speed that you are happy with - then it is the right computer for you. Any further expense would be a waste of money.

I have a friend who still uses a PC with Windows 98 and Ms Office 97 Professional. He also uses the Intuit Money Management software which is no longer supported let alone produced.
When he asks me if he should upgrade i ask the same question - 'what is it you need to do that you can't already do?' I'm still waiting for a need.

Long winded but i hope it answer the question.


Oldboy

Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 02:50:00 PM

You don't go far enough Chris. You foget to mention that Intel processors were developed at Alto by Xerox as were Motorola, as was the Mouse, the Floppy Drive, the Hard Drive, Ethernet - come to think of, just about every part of a modern compter was developed at Alto Park by Xerox who refused to Patent it - after which several (now prominant) members of the team left and set up their own companies upon which millions were made and the personal computing industry was born. If memory serves the whole story was detailed in a book called "Where Accidental Wizards stay up late and Empires Rise and Fall" - think that's the title. I've got a copy around i like to read every now and again.



You forgot to mention Windows, which was created by a researcher at Xerox so he didn't need to type in machine code to access the machine. Also, Xerox was owned by the British film company Rank and was called Rank Xerox. They brought Xerox for one million pounds because Xerox had just invented a photocopy machine and with all the patents no one could produce a photocopy device for fifteen years.  ;D

picsfor

yes, i'd forgotten the most obvious product - and the reason why Apples lawsuit over Microsoft's introduction of Windows failed - because Apple didn't invent it!
They were just the first to use it!

Thinking about it - i think Microsoft were actually the last to introduce Windows, given you had GEM, Atari ST, Commodore Amiga, Apple Macintosh, Sinclair QL and a host of other computers that no longer exist.
They all had to open a Shell window to run dos.

MS introduced it as a piece of software that you ran on DOS to make it more user friendly.

chris@seary.com

#51
Yeah, I should know when to stop, but once I'm on a roll..... No offence meant. Honestly.   :)

Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 02:50:00 PM

If Bill Gates had done his job properly security would not even be up for discussion!


Yep, Microsoft started by building down to a price, rather than up to a standard. That's why, when they eventually became the de facto standard, the industry was in such a mess. Not just security, but also things like performance and scalability.

I know that MS tarnished their brand name very much over security, and it will be a while before people accept that they've changed. Fair play to them, they're now serious players in many aspects (WS-Security, Federated identity, Cardspace, secure coding practices). As I said, there's now no distinction between the main operating systems (Unix, Mac (BSD Unix), and Windows) in any of the relevant standards (ISO 27001, CISSP body of knowledge, PCI DSS etc).

When it comes to MAC (that's Mandatory Access Control) and the requirements of people like the military, then you look at something else altogether.

I think that the main reason for sloppy security was that companies avoided it due to cost. It doesn't look exciting to a business executive or a banker making an advance to a small startup software house. Most of the time, you can't see or visualise it, certainly not in a ten minute presentation. It can only be conveyed through assessment of risk and cost, which will send most bombastic managers to sleep.

I worked on a system twelve years ago that handled foreign exchange deals for banks. It handled unbelievably huge amounts of money. The client said they weren't interested in paying for security. Everything ran as admin. Even the users had admin rights on the PC and the system. This was a good three or four years after the Nick Leeson incident, where he brought down Barings with his dodgy practices, and you would have thought that banks would get their act together. However, a lot of legislation passed since then has made senior executives take responsibility or end up in the pokey, so things are more stringent now.

I have to say, I find the most frustrating times are when I work with Unix people. Many times, they just don't seem to 'get it'. They feel that their operating system is secure, so the data must be secure. However, if support staff working from abroad can access an app (which can access the database) with similar privileges to the application service account, then those people abroad can do what they want with the data. Nothing wrong with the technology, just the configuration. I nearly go blue in the face trying to explain this, but am actually a very patient person in a working environment. I often need to be.

Many of the big issues now are within the code for web applications. You can look at the OWASP top ten and see that none of them relate to operating system or programming language:
http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Top_10_2007

Just programmers doing dumb things. I was one of them once, but have now seen the light and am just as annoying as a reformed smoker on the subject. And I don't have an off button, as you can see.   :)

Oldboy

Quote from: chris@seary.com on November 09, 2009, 09:13:16 PM

I worked on a system twelve years ago that handled foreign exchange deals for banks. It handled unbelievably huge amounts of money. The client said they weren't interested in paying for security. Everything ran as admin. Even the users had admin rights on the PC and the system. This was a good three or four years after the Nick Leeson incident, where he brought down Barings with his dodgy practices, and you would have thought that banks would get their act together. However, a lot of legislation passed since then has made senior executives take responsibility or end up in the pokey, so things are more stringent now.

I

We used to run a Tandem NoneStop mainframe which was configured with various user levels upto SuperSuper. Talking to an Tandem engineer who told us of one site where they didn't bother setting up the security levels, the system had built-in, and used SuperSuper all the time. Someone ran a command line command, and due to a tiny mistake in the commands typed in, deleted the whole database!  :'(  :doh:

picsfor

and there you hit the real nub of the Windows Mac debate - security.

My Commodore Amiga came with worbench disks infected with a virus in 1990!
My wifes second PC got infected by a trojan that wiped that hard drive - despite having what was considered 'adequate' protection at the time.
When offered the chance to trial wireless broad band in Haywards Heath in 2002 - amongst the very first i might add - i had installed to 2 desktops and a laptop before i had configured the fire wall on a Saturday night at about mid night. And can you believe it some one was driving around in  car surfing for an open router - and they found one. They deleted all the important files that were necessary to use the computers.
All 3 needed re-building from scratch. Only after the firewall had been fully configured!

That was the last time i ever got caught - despite my many efforts to protect myself. Back up has become a by word in our house.
Security has become as necessary as the on/ off button.

As for security in the work place? I was interested to note by your accreditations that security is taken a bit more seriously than when i was working in I.T. Support. I can well remember running round an office with over 100 staff physically pulling out plugs as it was the quickest to stop a virus spread that had beaten the hopeless protection we had. Too many jokes, video clips and Powerpoint presentations laced with humour. And then the Memory stick!

Now thankfully things are a bit tighter. And the same will happen with Macs - but many harsh lessons will have to be learned first before people sit up and take notice.

Oldboy

Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 10:24:08 PM

My Commodore Amiga came with worbench disks infected with a virus in 1990!


I remember in the 1980's, all the computer disks given away with the mags were security checked for viruses guaranteed, but they still contained viruses. The mags standard answer was, it's our supplier and we will take it up with them.  :o

chris@seary.com

I'm not so sure that Macs will be hit the same way as Windows.

Firstly, with the sheer number of Windows desktops around, it's a much more profitable target for people who write viruses.

Secondly, how much corporate data is on a Mac? The big corporates all use Windows desktops. If you work for a bank, you're almost certainly using Windows XP. So it's the best way into the whole network.

A bank client of mine found that many of its staff, when staying in hotels in Hong Kong, couldn't access broadband in the hotel room. They were prompted to download software to access via broadband, and the PC was locked down so it couldn't be installed.

Now this is staying in China, right? And you don't need to install any software to pick up an IP address to access the internet, right?

Management response was a directive to alter the configuration of the laptop to allow download of said software. We found a reasonably secure way of doing this using a virtual secure desktop, but basically some people need their brains dusted, yes?

I saw a presentation recently on how viruses are written in a certain country where malicious software is not illegal. So if it ain't illegal, it becomes an industry, right? There are virus writing companies with business analysts, requirements analysts, test teams etc. You can get SDK toolkits with little pop-up dialogs asking: 'Do you wish to write a worm, trojan or virus' (with little check boxes for each choice).

These toolkits apparently have 24 hour, 7 day a week helpdesk support.

All the beta versions of operating systems are tested for 'compatibility' and to keep up with the game by these companies.

Still, this stuff keeps me in business, so I reckon it's appropriate as an IT Security professional to embrace the whole thing and make it pay the rent.   :)

picsfor

Quote from: chris@seary.com on November 09, 2009, 10:46:53 PM

but basically some people need their brains dusted, yes?
All the beta versions of operating systems are tested for 'compatibility' and to keep up with the game by these companies.
Still, this stuff keeps me in business, so I reckon it's appropriate as an IT Security professional to embrace the whole thing and make it pay the rent.   :)

And now finally you hit the important points...

People need their brains dusted - that explains whey joke of the day has had several entries detailing why some people calling for I.T Support need their brains dusted.
Drivers will tell of passengers who operate the Emergency Pass Com equipment (you know, the one to say you're life is in danger etc) just to ask the driver : are we running on time, can you slow down because i'm struggling with my make up, what time will we arrive at a certain place, am i in coach 4 or 5... and so on

In this extremely dumbed down world of ours people are trained to do one, and only one job and hand over the rest of their lives to all the other experts. Do you know i've heard some one say that if a train hits you at 20mph it won't kill you because that's what the add says... It is the likes of you, and to a lesser extent, me and the others on web forums like this that have to some how educate people 'why' they need to do stuff.

My step daught is a DJ - not bad by all accounts. She has just embraced the Mac and become a devout convert - until she wanted me to configure all of her pirate file sharing sites etc and i said no.
eMule, Limewire and the likes. I've never even seen them in action. I refuse to have them in the house.

She sulked and asked her mum to speak to me. Not happening - like taking recreational drugs - not in my house and where i have a say over stopping it.
What people do in their houses is up to them - but not in mine.

Strangely enough - she has now signed up for all the pay per download sites and is amazed at how much greater the choice of music is she gets and the success and quality of the downloads are much improved.
She's extremely impressed with herself for discovering all this  and maybe i could learn something from her.

I don't care how they learn the lesson, i don't care if they take credit for it. Another lesson learned is less stress for me in the future!

As for these companies testing software and O/S's, it has been said for as long as i've been buying floppy disks, the companies responsible for providing anti virus subscribe to these modern day hackers t help generate and even boost income. I'm not putting any names to that claim, but it was certainly common talk when i was on level 1 and 2 support desk - to the point that when an alert made the news about a new indestructable virus threat some one would say 'i wonder who sponsored this one...' substitute the dots for any of the major anti virus suppliers!

As for paying your rent, i would hope it's buying you a house - cos it's not going away and at some point your children will 'demand that you join the Mac charge 'cos they're so cool  8) 8) 8)'

I look forward to the 'why windows is so incompetent thread'   ;D Then i'll know that security has reached new levels!

Forseti

Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 05:35:16 PM


Get it right - and you have just built the PC equivelant of a bullet train. Get it wrong and you've just built Stephensons 'Rocket'.

Long winded but i hope it answer the question.

And then the Memory stick!




Long winded perhaps but also very comprehensive - many thanks for that. To an extent your comments justify some of my reasons in having the PC build by a specialist company as they would appear to have got it right as you say.  :tup:

Yes, I get your point regarding memory sticks and perhaps you could answer me this question. Considering that a lot of the newer generation televisions and DVD recorder/players are fitted with a USB socket for inserting a memory stick (mine certainly have) are these sets also vulnerable to infection?
Canon 7D,  Canon SX1 IS, EF100 f/2.8 USM Macro, EF70-200 f/4 L IS USM, EF17-40 f/4 L USM, Sigma 50mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM, Canon Speedlite 580EX MkII

"Everyone can take a great picture with digital, the knack is to take two" - David Bailey

picsfor

Even your washing machine is vulnerable to a virus attack!

I think Chris may put me right here if i've got it wrong - this really is his field of expertise - but basically anything that has a nice pretty graphical menu, or can be accessed via blue tooth and other wireless connections or has a usb connection is prone to a virus.

But here is the rub of it. What is to be gained by taking down your TV, or Washing Machine or Car?

People who write these viruses, trojans etc do so for an end purpose - line their pockets with as much money as Chris is getting if not substantially more. They do so to get noticed and offered a job with the security companies and so improve the quality of their lives. Very few viruses are written in what is referred to as 'the western world'. I'm not saying that they can't do it - it's just that the gains for doing it no longer outweigh the cost of being caught doing it.

Prior to 9/11 Gary Mckinnlon would have been offered a job in the states by one of the large security companies like Macafee or Norton. Since 9/11 he is now a terrorist threat. He's not a threat. He's some kid in an adults body who's watched 'Wargames' one to many times and doesn't understand that times have moved on.

Go to bed and sleep easy, plug your memory stick into your TV and show of your pictures etc. You are not being targeted by any one, and would have to be unlucky to be caught out by a virus. If you've gone to enough effort to get your computer custom built to your requirements, i think you've taken enough interest to make all of your electronic stuff secure.

'Join us again for another tale from "The Twilight Zone"  :)'

hevans

Quote from: picsfor on November 09, 2009, 10:24:08 PM
and there you hit the real nub of the Windows Mac debate - security.

...

Now thankfully things are a bit tighter. And the same will happen with Macs - but many harsh lessons will have to be learned first before people sit up and take notice.

Yes, so we then agree that this particular argument, that security is a reason to buy a Mac over a Windows box, is no longer tenable. There is little difference in the security available for the two platforms and both manufacturers are looking at the issues seriously. The primary security flaws are the way people use the machines and the 3rd party applications.

The remaining arguments between the two platforms are: the look and feel, the average cost, performance, and the flexibility of the platform.

Look and feel: this is entirely subjective and down to ergonomics and what feels right for the individual. Arguing this is tantamount to arguing that bananas are better than apples - some like one, some prefer the other. There is also a stylistic argument - some people like Levi's, some like Armani. Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead in Armani - to me it screams superficiality.

Average cost: The macs are expensive, but has been touted, the matching windows platform in terms of performance is about the same cost (although there is more commercial competition keeping the prices suppressed, but not by much).  However, the entry level cost for a windows box is much less (and less so for a Linux box as you only need pay for the hardware). Ignoring the Linux box (for now), the windows box on average is much cheaper - a very big consideration for many purchasing computers (but you get what you pay for) and if it meets your needs, then why pay more? c.f.
Quote from: picsforWhen he asks me if he should upgrade i ask the same question - 'what is it you need to do that you can't already do?' I'm still waiting for a need.

Performance: see Average cost, most windows based PCs are lower spec'd because the buyer didn't want to pay more. If you spend the same money for a windows pc that you would for a mac, then you'd have a comparable system. Most performance issues come from how good the compiler is at optimising the code. The Monte-Carlo physics simulation codes I write run faster when compiled with Visual C++ than Gcc. With a dual boot test on the same machine with Linux and windows XP, the code runs faster when I run it under windows. But if I compile it with the Portland Group's compilers, there's a massive improvement in the Linux version. Performance is a hardware and compiler issue. But mostly compiler.

Flexibility: The Mac's aren't flexible: the options for tailoring the system are limited to what Apple deems that you will need. Apple loves running its vertical market, it's extremely profitable. Do you ever wonder why you see these amusing blue screens of death photos from petrol pumps, airport flight information terminals, etc? It's because the windows system is flexible enough to allow for that development/integration/implementation, and I mean this in terms of hardware flexibility - not software. Although I recently saw a failed boot screen from a ticket machine/stamp machine at the supermarket that was running Linux. You'll never see a mac system used in a petrol pump - it's not cost effective, nor can you probably winkle in the necessary device drivers for some of the more exotic peripherals required.

So. As previously stated: buy what is best for your pocket book and what meets your needs. If it's a glossy pretty white box that screams "superficial", fine, if it's a lump of grey tedium that screams "cheapskate", fine. But don't spout on about how utopian a system it is if it won't meet my technical/cost needs.

H.

As an aside: the reason the security on the original Windows boxes from the '90s/early '00 was low was simple: a small amount of additional security dramatically impacts usability - the balance fell more to the usability side - a naive time. The concept was to provide a platform that was easy to connect to other machines and share data (although NFS is not secure either). I've now had the pleasure of trying to explain to several people why they need a firewall (and the arguments are unchanged for macs or pcs). These are the same people that religiously go around locking every door and window of their house before going next door.

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